Oil Question

[euro_wake]

This is my first sea doo product. I haven't really thought about what oil I should be running. I have been running Penzoil synthetic blend 2cycle TC-W3. Is this bad? I have been getting a Light Blue exhaust color and thought this was ok. I have been reading a lot on this tonight and there is some debate.

 

[LouDoo]

No debate here, do NOT use TC-W3, it's the wrong oil, do use APT-TC rated full synthetic, I use BRP XPS2.

Lou

 

[Dr Honda]

As lou said... no debate.

TC-w3 oil can't support the HP of a rotax engine.

 

[euro_wake]

Cool Thanks guys for the help.

 

[euro_wake]

What color is the xps synthetic

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

The XPSII color was recently changed from yellowish to redish, API-TC has the low-ash metal salts additive package that can still provide lubrication at high cylinder wall and piston temperatures developed in air cooled and ROTAX water cooled engines.

The TCW-3 no-ash does not offer this protection at high temperature range, and the two types are not interchangeable (don't use API-TC in place of TCW-3 and vice-versa) b/c the temp of a cold motor is not high enough to properly sweep away ash deposits.

 

[euro_wake]

Ok cool thanks, the reason I asked I had to buy it by the gallon. My local dealer only has XPS synthetic in 45 gallon drums. He did have the XPS mineral oil though in gallon jugs. Just out of curiosity whats the difference? Just ones synthetic and ones not?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

We carry oil in the drums here as well, by doing this we can offer a very competitive price for our customers. Incidentally, we have nearly everything EXCEPT oil for Seadoos, LOL. You're lucky to have such a source though, he can probably give you a better price b/c he buys bulk.

Simply put, the synthetics are better oils in terms of film strength, and the decomposition temperatures are typically higher. Also, synthetics are widely known to wash away ring land varnish deposits, keeping the ring lands cleaner. Assuming your motor is the Rotax 720, the requirements really aren't that critical and the mineral API-TC should work just fine. This is what I used in my '96 seadoo for many years, with no engine problems at all. I believe the mineral version was discontinued though, you may only have an option for the blend or full synthetic. The blend is more than adequate for the non-RAVE 720 motors.

If it were me and I switched to API-TC oil (blend or full synthetic), I'd avoid running my ski extremely hard the first couple of fuel tanks to allow for the ring land varnish deposits to be washed away by the cleaning action of the synthetic/blend, just in case the TCW-3 has left varnish deposits in the ring lands. Excessive varnish deposits in the piston ring lands interfere with proper piston ring clearances, thus can cause high piston temperatures increasing chances the piston rings might snag the exhaust/intake ports as the piston travels the length of the cylinder.

It's important not to mix incompatible oils, sometimes the mixture can become gelatinous and cause the oil injection delivery system to fail due to clogging. I recommend removing your oil tank and flushing the TCW-3 from it using a solvent(I rinse the oil tank using gasoline, then filter it before putting it into the fuel tank), and blow the tank dry to remove traces of solvent, thus the two oils aren't mixed.

The in-line oil strainer/filter should be replaced at this time, this is a special screen type filter designed to catch any large debris from contaminating your oil pump and injection system, it is not a fine-particle fuel type filter so don't just install one of those in it's place b/c injection oil will not be able to travel through this type of filter.

So, you have some oil tank maintenance to do. Make sure to purge out all air bubbles from the delivery lines once you've refilled your oil tank, air bubbles can cause the oil pump to malfunction. Also, you have the option of pre-mixing the first fuel tank at a ratio of about 42/1 as further insurance, until you can determine the oil injection system is operating properly.

Good luck with your ski, I certainly enjoyed my old green '96 Seadoo for many years and sometimes regret giving it away b/c it was such a blast to ride.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I just remembered that's a rotary valve motor, so you probably also want to disconnect the two oil lines from either side of the engine block and drain out the TCW-3 from the rotary valve cavity as well, before refilling oil tank with API-TC. This will minimize chances of mixing the two and congealing.

 

[guitarsjm]

hi guys.. been a while so forgive my not being a contributor...more on that in another thread..

my question... had engine totally rebuilt by a fantastic mechanic-- Mike of Heavy Metal Customs in winterhaven, fl did a great job with all new block and guts from SBT...

ok the question... he, mike, thought it best to disconnect the oil pump in a kind of pre-emptive move in case of pump failure.

made sense to me and he has years of experience with these engines and systems. he left the oil reservoir and its line to gravity feed the bottom of the engine. now, for what the oil pump would have been doing, the top half and cylinders, he told me it would be best to go with an oil gas mix.

i have been using the PWC synth oil--purple label-- pictured above in a previous post in this thread.

she runs great although i did have to get some critical wiring redone after getting stranded on lake...no jokes please....lol

back to the oil / gas issue, when i got engine rebuilt and 'mike' put me on the oil/gas mix routine, i have to think he has the oil to gas

ratio a bit high because i am LITERALLY KILLING people on the water with the plume i leave...its like a smoke screen! i can only attribute

this to an oil mix that is too high. it has been this way since the rebuild and break in. i think the ratio of oil to a gallon of gas was 4oz is

what he had me use. is this a bit much?? i am so embarassed and really get people pissed when out on a lake or river. i can hear people

choking! I hope someone can give me some advice on a more proper oil/gas ratio--and if you dont mind, make it simple as in how many

ounces to a gallon of gas; the ratio thing gets me confused when at a pump! this really was an issue when we took her out last weekend

to cyrstal river to go see some manatee's which a jetboat is great for, but the amount of smoke i was putting out was SO BAD.

again, thanks guys!

 

[LouDoo]

40:1 is the correct oil mix ratio which equates to 3.2oz oil to a gallon, not far from what you've been using. I'm afraid wasting oil and smoke is the price you pay when you pre-mix. My suggestion would be to re-install the oil injection system.

I'm not suggesting this some guys go with a 50:1 which might be O.K., but I wouldn't run full throttle for extended periods. 50:1 is 2.5oz per gallon.

The advantage of the oil injection is at idle and slow speeds you're probably around 60-70:1 and only at a 40:1 mix at full throttle.

Lou

 

[guitarsjm]

ah! that makes sense.... like i was saying, when we went to see the manatees, you HAVE to be at idle speeds...and the SMOOOKE was killing those all around me.. i felt so bad.... that said, i see, that from what you are saying, when i am at full throttle, hardly any smoke vs loads of smoke at idle speeds since the oil mix is the same no matter what the throttle is at. would you be able to tell me HOW to reconnect the oil injection system? and how do i know if it is working? i do remember the mechanic showing me that he more or less pulled some sort of oil line off near the bottom of the engine and i think closed it off somehow--the line and the possibly the oil injector(?). if i do or am able to, reconnect the injector, how can i tell that its working? besides that, i have 3/4 of a tank still of premix--lol that has to burn out. but i would surely love to not smoke so much at low/idle speeds. thanks Lou, great to hear from you too,!

john

 

[Seadoobuddy]

John, Once you reinstall the oil pump you could just keep adding fuel to the gas tank and it will eventually be all 100% fuel after awhile...or pump it out and use it in your car, mower, etc a little at a time.

but Lou and Dr are correct, the oil injection will use a lot less oil and easier to fill the gas and oil separately instead of mixing both together.

 

[LouDoo]

Well, it kinda depends on how the oil injection system was disabled. Look under the carbs. at the base of the intake manifold, is the oil pump still there? It will look something like this.

Lou

 

[guitarsjm]

Well, it kinda depends on how the oil injection system was disabled. Look under the carbs. at the base of the intake manifold, is the oil pump still there? It will look something like this.

Lou

This is so true! I am 'pretty' sure, that the mech, as he told me, blocked it off but left the lines there and that the oil tank now just served to lube the bottom of the engine... and there is a line just sitting there blocked off somehow. dont remember how it is blocked off but i could easily find out when i go get her again. if i knew or had a visual idea of how, along with your picture Lou, HOW the pump is supposed to work and the purpose of those little hoses; looks like they... I think i see how it is supposed to work correct me and enlighten me if and where i am wrong:

using your picture as reference, and from what i remember seeing, i think there are a few tubes/lines coming from the oil reservoir/tank.
one of those main lines gravity feeds the crank wherever it goes into. another line, i think the one currently disconnected, connected to the silver inlet in the picture to the right and between the two little hoses. that line fed the injector valve/piston that, referring to post i read from snipe (http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?12708-Engine-failures-oil-injected-vs-Premix), controls the amount of oil being injected via a cable that is connected to the cam which is at the other end of the inlet port. Am I correct so far? If so, good. Where or what, is that cable connected to or where should it be coming from? I guess i can figure that one out if its there and refer to snipes post.

Is there a return line for the oil system? An oil flow, hose chart, would be very helpful to me i think. In snipes post, he mentions an oil filter that is not in your picture:

"Lines clogged?.....if you notice under the oil injection tank, there is a filter. This filter is of very fine mesh. There should be no way for any debris to pass through that filter. If someone's removed it, put it back on."

Not sure if i have one or not but will surely find out. If its there, can it be cleaned? If it is NOT there, where can i get one?

It seems to be a very simple mechanism that should, i hope, still work. Would having it being disconnected for some time; since the new engine was put in, damaged it at all? I know i am asking alot here, but i can do just about everything once i have the info, and a source i can trust which i do.

Whatever further help you can give me with this i truly appreciate. just that picture you provided was of great help! if there is a thread that would better serve me, please point me!

Thanks again...and as always... you guys are the BEST!

john

p.s. my boat is a 97 sportster with a 717 in case injector pump looks different than your pic

 

[guitarsjm]

Thank you for this basic help. I see that i may be asking a bit much in the 'free' section lol, therefore, if i want a more step by step approach i will need to join the premium membership. Which by the way i have tried several times last nite and the page is having issues loading.. will try later today. Looking forward to it!

 

[LouDoo]

O.K., the pump in the picture is from a 717, so it's identical to the pump on your boat. We need to determine a few things.

1. Is the oil pump still on your motor? It's located just under the carbs, mounted on the intake manifold. yes or no? There may be a block off plate instead of the oil pump. If the oil pump is still mounted on the intake manifold you will need the nylon gear that is attached to the oil pump, you won't be able to see this part until you remove the intake manifold. If the oil pump is not there you will need the oil pump.

2. There are three oil lines, one going to the block, this line provides oil to the rotary valve. One line returning to the oil tank, this line returns oil from the rotary valve back to the tank. And one line that would normally go to the oil filter and then to the oil pump.

The first two lines should still be connected, the third line should be blocked off. What's the status of these lines?

3. There should be a cable, looks like a throttle cable that is connected to the arm of the oil pump. What's the status of the cable, is it there? If so is it still connected to the oil pump.

If the parts are not there you will need to obtain them, call your mechanic see if he still has them. If not [MENTION=41828]Minnetonka4me[/MENTION] or [MENTION=46279]99spxxx[/MENTION] should have most or all of the parts, the only uncommon part is going to be the oil pump cable.

Let me know when you have the parts and we'll go from there.

Everyone on this forum is a volunteer we all have jobs and interests of our own, so answers may not be immediately forthcoming.

Lou

added:

Here's a couple of parts diagrams that may help you better understand where the parts are located.

http://fiche.seadoowarehouse.com/se...adoojb&a=176&b=13&c=0&d=-OIL-INJECTION-SYSTEM

http://fiche.seadoowarehouse.com/se...=16&c=0&d=-OIL-INJECTION-PUMP-W/-ROTARY-VALVE

If you haven't already done so download a service manual for your boat.

 

[guitarsjm]

Thank you Lou... You gave me some fantastic information to get me started. As soon as i get her back here from where we keep her stored when not in use, I will pop the hood and get down under there and find out what is what so as you said, 'we can then go from there' once you know. I greatly appreciate your help and the time you are putting into this. Hopefully i will get to her this weekend. i will also try and get in touch with the mech who did the engine rebuild. i think he would remember how he bypassed it, have a good morning Lou...