New to Boating! Need some advice

[Ccathcart]

Hi all! I am fairly new to boating. I owned a pretty nice jetski up until yesterday (owned for 2 months) and sold it to seek out a boat purchase. Let me start out by saying I am not mechanically sound when it comes to working on cars/boats.

My budget 7k.

My wants: a small jet boat that I can bring myself, my wife and 4 kids on.

I was very close to picking up a Yamaha exciter with two brand new SBT engines but through my research of SBT it seemed too risky.

I just saw an add for a 1999 Seadoo Challenger 1800 which is what brought me here. The guy is asking 7,500 and here is what I know of it:

2 brand new Seadoo 787 engines in 2010. He tells me 25 hours on them now but without the hour meter he can't be sure.

The interior is*fair.* He has recovered some of the seats, but not all of them.* A couple are*splitting slightly.* The captains chairs are not splitting, but they have the wear/discoloring. No issues with the boat overall, he says he is just getting a new deck boat.* *


Anyone have concerns? Is this a good boat? Can I get a lower price even with the new engines?

Thanks!

 

[1800chall_tim]

i have that exact boat,1999, twin 787's, aztec red in color. and i use it with my wife and three kids quite often. with all 5 of us on board it still has lots of power and control as long as you have the weight distributed properly. last weekend i tried out the three person tube for the first time and it pulled well with my ten year old and her friend in it. this boat is lots of fun but i must warn you, it has a 40 gallon tank and in the 3-4 hours i was on the lake i sucked up 3/4 tank. i paid 7500 for mine with original engines,interior in mint condition all seats and arm rests in great shape,inside and out virtually brand new. no wear and tear. no scratches, no scrapes, and a new hydro-turf kit on the floor. there is a quite a bit of regular maintenance and upkeep with this boat . i spent several late evenings in the garage going through one thing after another on mine this spring to get it to were i felt confident i wouldn't be stranded (with the wife and three kids in a panic) .it is not a boat to just pull out quick, throw on the water and go. what happened to the original engines?

 

[1800chall_tim]

here is some pics of my 1999, i put the bimini top on for $550-ish, well worth the money!

 

[Ccathcart]

here is some pics of my 1999, i put the bimini top on for $550-ish, well worth the money!

Yours looks brand new!!!

I am not sure what happened to the original,engines but will ask. Anything else I should be asking? My worst fear is getting something and giving it in the shop half the time being without it and dumping a ton more money into it.


My 4 stroke ski was something I never had to worry about.

Any other questions I should be asking? Is there a less maintenance boat I should be targeting in my budget?

 

[1800chall_tim]

find out why both engines got replaced and take it for a test ride, it can be a money pit if you aren't careful,do a really good run through. take a flashlight and look in the jet tunnels under the boat, look to see if the impellers and wear rings are really beat up. if not sure what to look for there is alot on this sight, you can 'search the forum' at top.

​

there is quite a bit of maintenance even with a good running boat, but i found it to be very easy to do myself. a shop manual walks you right through everything. the only thing is that you have to get used to working bent over the back seat and sometimes just about upside down. it takes a little getting used to.

with virtually brand new engines and a decent interior it could possibly be a good buy, it all depends how much time do you have to devote to it. i love mine, but i spend lots of time in late evenings tinkering with it and learning more about the boat every time. it is a good feeling to know how it all works and what to do if something isn't right.​

 

[1800chall_tim]

​

find out why both engines got replaced and take it for a test ride, it can be a money pit if you aren't careful,do a really good run through. take a flashlight and look in the jet tunnels under the boat, look to see if the impellers and wear rings are really beat up. if not sure what to look for there is alot on this sight, you can 'search the forum' at top.

​

there is quite a bit of maintenance even with a good running boat, but i found it to be very easy to do myself. a shop manual walks you right through everything. the only thing is that you have to get used to working bent over the back seat and sometimes just about upside down. it takes a little getting used to.

with virtually brand new engines and a decent interior it could possibly be a good buy, it all depends how much time do you have to devote to it. i love mine, but i spend lots of time in late evenings tinkering with it and learning more about the boat every time. it is a good feeling to know how it all works and what to do if something isn't right.​

 

[Stevego]

Do not fear new or rebuilt engines. It is normal for 2 strokes to require a rebuild after so many hours. Compression testing the engines is the best test you can do. New is around 150 psi. Below 130 psi means rebuild will be required soon. Make sure all pistons are getting similar readings within 5 psi. 7K is market valaue if all running well. Test it on the water before you buy.

 

[Ccathcart]

Do not fear new or rebuilt engines. It is normal for 2 strokes to require a rebuild after so many hours. Compression testing the engines is the best test you can do. New is around 150 psi. Below 130 psi means rebuild will be required soon. Make sure all pistons are getting similar readings within 5 psi. 7K is market valaue if all running well. Test it on the water before you buy.

Thanks guys for all the info. I also am talking to a guy that has a 1999 Seadoo Sportster......pristine condition. Trying to get some more details on the engines. The price is 7,500. What is a better boat that year? This one or the Challenger? I would say based on ads the Sportster is in better condition, but I am not sure the overall thoughts of these two boats and historically which is a better boat.

 

[Dr Honda]

There is no such thing as "Better" with a seadoo boat... only different.

I try not to give any opinions... but what ever you buy... you want to take it out on the water for a good 15 to 30 minutes. We see it here all the time......


"I bought this boat, and it looks great, and it sounded fine on the trailer... but when I took it out, the engine wont' run" (or) "The engine rev's very high, and we don't move more than 10 mph."


So... take it out long enough to know if there are any mechical issues, or overheating issues.


Along with that... you want to check the compression. On the 800 engines... 150 psi is a fresh engine. (or one only having 25hrs on it)


As far as the owner's comment of 25 hr's... if he can't verify that... then just throw that number away. But, I will say this... since 1996, seadoo MPEM's (the internal computer) can log the time. But, you need a dealer to read the info. Knowing that the guy is saying it got new Bombardier engines... I have to assume a dealer did the install. If that's the case... then they should have reset the time.

Last thing... there is nothing wrong with SBT engines. They give a good warranty, and are reliable. But generally, Yamaha boats are overpriced in the used market.

Good luck, and let us know what you do.

 

[Stevego]

I assume it it a Sportster 1800 with 7 seats right? Similar to Challenger but different layout and less powerful engines. 2 x 85 HP = 170hp vs 220hp in the Challenger. Matter of personal preference I guess. Do not see many Sportsrter 1800's around, they are rare. I think most people went for the more powerful Challenger.

 

[Dr Honda]

I forgot one thing.... in a rotax/Seadoo engine... you have to run an API-TC oil. So, when you are looking at a seadoo boat, ask the owner what kind if oil they used. If they show you a bottle of oil... and it says TC-w3 on it... don't buy the boat. It's the wrong oil, and it's a slow death to a Rotax engine.

The reason people use a TC-w3 oil, is because it's the most common 2-stroke oil... and it's cheap. (It's regular outboard engine oil) But, it doesn't have the additives needed to keep a high RPM, high output engine happy.

 

[Ccathcart]

I forgot one thing.... in a rotax/Seadoo engine... you have to run an API-TC oil. So, when you are looking at a seadoo boat, ask the owner what kind if oil they used. If they show you a bottle of oil... and it says TC-w3 on it... don't buy the boat. It's the wrong oil, and it's a slow death to a Rotax engine.

The reason people use a TC-w3 oil, is because it's the most common 2-stroke oil... and it's cheap. (It's regular outboard engine oil) But, it doesn't have the additives needed to keep a high RPM, high output engine happy.

The guy with the challenger is telling me he has always used, "Synthetic Sea Doo 2 stroke oil". Is that the right stuff?

 

[Ccathcart]

The guy with the challenger is telling me he has always used, "Synthetic Sea Doo 2 stroke oil". Is that the right stuff?

They both are saying they used the same thing...Synthetic Sea Doo 2 stroke oil...XPS?

 

[scski]

They both are saying they used the same thing...Synthetic Sea Doo 2 stroke oil...XPS?

Yep, seadoo makes a full and semi synthetic which are both correct.

 

[Ccathcart]

Ok, quick update.... Between a couple boats right now. The first being the one with the two brand new engines I mentioned above, the 99 challenger. The guy is going to take me for a spin tomorrow.

Also found this other one though:

2001 challenger 2000. I think I can get the asking down to 7500. On this one they used Merc premium plus TCWIII two stroke oil. Is that alright. I am being told no issues with it. I am asking for a compression test. This one however has been used in salt water mostly but again I am being told by the marina guy who takes care of it for the family he hasn't had any engine issues with it.

 

[ocod]

Ok, quick update.... Between a couple boats right now. The first being the one with the two brand new engines I mentioned above, the 99 challenger. The guy is going to take me for a spin tomorrow.

Also found this other one though:

2001 challenger 2000. I think I can get the asking down to 7500. On this one they used Merc premium plus TCWIII two stroke oil. Is that alright. I am being told no issues with it. I am asking for a compression test. This one however has been used in salt water mostly but again I am being told by the marina guy who takes care of it for the family he hasn't had any engine issues with it.

Warning Warning Warning
Seadoo is not meant to have Merc engines which I think that year challenger did.

Nobody will touch it.

Stick w/the 99 Challenger.
I have the to Sportster.
It was mentioned before different seating and less hp motor but otherwise great starter boat esp w/kids.

Just have to watch out for sucking up of the ropes.
Someone had to take wife to ER to get finger stitched up. Rope tangled in her finger as she picking up rope and it got sucked in.

 

[Dr Honda]

Welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.........................


a 2001, Challenger 2000 should have a Mercury "Sport Jet" engine in it. (either a 200 HP DFI, or a 240 hp EFI engine) If it does... that boat would use Merc oil.

Originally, you were asking about an 1800. The 1800 had Rotax engines, and in that case... a TC-w3 oil is a big no-no.

I still have mixed feelings on the Merc engines. The Islandia in my Avatar has a 240 Merc engine. They are good, reliable engines... but they can be very expensive to fix, if they have an issue.

 

[Dr Honda]

Warning Warning Warning
Seadoo is not meant to have Merc engines which I think that year challenger did.

Nobody will touch it.

That's mostly true.

With the Merc powered Seadoo boats... if you can not do your own work... then you need to make sure a local shop can. Most seadoo shops wont' touch them since they can't get parts. BUT... most regular boat shops will. Mercury still makes all the engine, drive, and electrical parts.



For years... I was an advocate to say away from the Merc powered Seadoo's. The reason for that was... more than 50% of the people who own them, can't do the servicing... and it can be hard to find someone who can.

Well, my family wanted an Islandia bad. So... unless I wanted to spend $25K on a used boat... I had no choice, other than to buy an "Merc" Islandia. My boat is a project, and I bought it with a bad engine. I'm in the middle of the rebuild, and I've got about $1600 just into the parts. (with no labor yet)

Now... my engine failure was a fluke. From what I can tell... a bolt came out of a rod, and the engine ate itself.

BUT... there is a known issue with these aging Merc engines. The worm gear, that spins the oil pump is known to go bad. When that happens... the engine eat's itself. So... if you buy a Merc boat... you will want to have to oil pump pulled, and have the gear inspected. If it's good... you have no issues. If it's warn... then you need to consider changing to "Pre-mix." The simple solution would be to just change that gear... but it's mounted on the crankshaft... and you have to strip the engine down to get to it.


With my project... there was A LOT of damage. But a typical "Melt-down" can be rebuilt for around $1100. (if you can do the labor yourself)

Just some food for thought.

 

[Ccathcart]

So what's the flip side of this with the Seadoo engine? A bad merc engine is 1100 to rebuild. A bad Seadoo engine is much less? It always seems like a crap shoot in what you get.

 

[Dr Honda]

So what's the flip side of this with the Seadoo engine? A bad merc engine is 1100 to rebuild. A bad Seadoo engine is much less? It always seems like a crap shoot in what you get.

Yes... a used boat is always a crap shoot. It can run perfect on the test, but could die the first time you take it out, after you buy it. BUT... going on a test ride will tell you a lot about the boat, and the owner. This is basically why I buy projects. I know they don't work when I bring them home... and the price tag reflects that.

So... take my islandia. When it's all said and done... I will have a clean Islandia, with a fresh engine, for $8k or less. Right now... the market price for a 2002 Islandia is $12k to $14, and that's with an engine that may give up on the first ride. (The original engine) So, I'll be at least $4k under market.

This is in contrast to my buddy who bought an 1800 (DSW222) It ran great when he bought it, but eventually (the first season he had it), it needed 2 engines. So... he had $3k OVER market value into the boat when it was in running condition.

Now... as far as the engine price... the $1100 is for a light melt-down, and you can do your own labor. (all of it) If you can't do the labor... then you are looking at about $5k to have a Merc powerhead replaced with a rebuild.

In contrast to a 2-stroke Rotax... a Rebuilt engine from SBT wil cost you about $800 to $1100 (depending on what you have) and even an expensive shop will only charge around $500 for the install. (most are under $300)

 

[Dr Honda]

Let me end with this...............


If the price is right with the Merc boat... go on a test ride, and have the compression checked.. (you want to see 120 psi or better)

If you like it, the price is right... and it all checks out... don't be afraid to buy it. We have an active Merc section here, and questions are answered quick.

 

[Ccathcart]

Yes... a used boat is always a crap shoot. It can run perfect on the test, but could die the first time you take it out, after you buy it. BUT... going on a test ride will tell you a lot about the boat, and the owner. This is basically why I buy projects. I know they don't work when I bring them home... and the price tag reflects that.

So... take my islandia. When it's all said and done... I will have a clean Islandia, with a fresh engine, for $8k or less. Right now... the market price for a 2002 Islandia is $12k to $14, and that's with an engine that may give up on the first ride. (The original engine) So, I'll be at least $4k under market.

This is in contrast to my buddy who bought an 1800 (DSW222) It ran great when he bought it, but eventually (the first season he had it), it needed 2 engines. So... he had $3k OVER market value into the boat when it was in running condition.

Now... as far as the engine price... the $1100 is for a light melt-down, and you can do your own labor. (all of it) If you can't do the labor... then you are looking at about $5k to have a Merc powerhead replaced with a rebuild.

In contrast to a 2-stroke Rotax... a Rebuilt engine from SBT wil cost you about $800 to $1100 (depending on what you have) and even an expensive shop will only charge around $500 for the install. (most are under $300)

Well that puts it into perspective! I am not much of a mechanic. I mean, I can do almost any house repair from electrical to drywall, but cars, boats, etc. I have no experience, just never tried honestly.

With your last couple of lines above, I think you gave me the answer.....

 

[ocod]

Well that puts it into perspective! I am not much of a mechanic. I mean, I can do almost any house repair from electrical to drywall, but cars, boats, etc. I have no experience, just never tried honestly.

With your last couple of lines above, I think you gave me the answer.....

Following the Dr. Orders usually has good outcomes :thumbsup:

 

[Dr Honda]

If you are not a good mechanic, and need to stay in a budget... I'd say to keep looking at the Rotax powered boats.

Even a "Shade Tree" mechanic can do an engine swap on a 2cyl, 2-stroke Rotax engine. (and save the labor costs) The Merc engines are big, and need an engine hoist to get them out. You can pick up a 2-stroke Rotax. (They are 100Lbs fully dressed, and about 65 Lbs as a long block)


Now... in my situation... I wanted an Islandia. They never came with the small Rotax engines. So, my choice was a Merc, or a pair of 4-tec Rotax engines. When a 4-tec engine gives out... they can be crazy expensive too.

 

[Dr Honda]

Following the Dr. Orders usually has good outcomes :thumbsup:

Thanks for the pat on the back :cheers: