Lucas Dual API-TC and TC-W3 Oil

[Seadoo Tuner]

Parts store was out of the Mystik Jt4 purple oil that I usually buy for the Seadoo, however they have the Lucas brand that's also a semi-synthetic and is strangely rated both API-TC and TC-W3 and labelled for PWC use. It is blue in color instead of the Mystik's red/purplish color.

Can these two be mixed since their rated for API-TC and are semi-synthetic? (for use in 587 and 720 rotax engines).

 

[etemplet]

Do a search. I did a write up on this and some other oils.

 

[mikidymac]

No, you can not mix two different brands of oil.

I would suggest the API-TC only oil from Lucas, not a dual rated oil. Don't use Land & Sea.

 

[etemplet]

I don't think the Land & Sea designation is approved for Marine Two Stroke operation. I was told that any Marine grade oil will have the TCW-3 designation. That is a lable issue that is causing much confusion. If anyone has any questions on this you can call Lucas Product Specialists and have a conversation. Thanks Miki for keeping everyone on the right track bro !!

 

[mikidymac]

Correct, stay away from any oil that says TCW-3 anywhere on the label regardless of anything else it says. Just stop reading the label when you see TCW-3 and move along.

 

[etemplet]

All Lucas Marine Oils will are certified TCW-3 which is required for biodegradability. The API-TC and other ratings still apply. I circled the designation in "red".It is available at O'Reilly's Auto Parts for around $26 gal.. Lucas also makes this product in a full synthetic that is $30 per gallon. No argument, just making sure I wa s understood properly. Touchdowns everyone !!

 

[mikidymac]

All Lucas Marine Oils will are certified TCW-3 which is required for biodegradability. The API-TC and other ratings still apply. I circled the designation in "red".It is available at O'Reilly's Auto Parts for around $26 gal.. Lucas also makes this product in a full synthetic that is $30 per gallon. No argument, just making sure I wa s understood properly. Touchdowns everyone !!

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I am going to keep hammering on you Gene until you learn there is no such thing as a dual spec oil since the additives are completely different between an API-TC and TCW-3 if it is the last thing I do, LOL.
The best advise I can give you is don't run a "marine" or "outboard" oil.
Don't worry about the "marine" thing as the API-TC was never a marine spec oil. If you look into the TCW-3 oil evolution one of the things that killed the performance of the oil was the marine biodegradability. If you look at the highest spec 2-stroke oils, none of them are "marine" or TCW-3 rated.
Just run the Lucas 2-cycle oil posted above in post #5.

As a wise man once said, "I reject your reality and substitute my own".

Damn, how I love a Friday afternoon oil debate!

 

[mikidymac]

The following is from a Rotax Aircraft engineer but applies exactly to our 2-stroke Seadoos aslo powered by Rotax.....

There are many TC-W3 rated oils out there that are also APC-TC rated. API-TC OK, TC-W3 not OK, what about the ones rated both?


Hi Larry, you’ve asked a great oil question that really stirs up a lot of two stroke pilots. I have spent a lot of time researching to stroke oils. If I ask about engine oils when presenting a seminar, it seems like I’d get a different favourite oil from each attendee. Ok, here goes my opinion on the great oil debate.

Our Rotax aircraft engines operated at high load, high rpm and high piston temperature for prolonged periods. For our application the correct oil specified is API -TC (low ash) rated oil, period! This applies to to the aircooled (503) as well liquid cooled (582) aircraft engines equally.

A boat or watercraft engine is cooled by cool lake water and this engine application experiences much lower piston temperatures. These craft use TC-W3 rated oil.

A boats engines exhaust exits under the surface of the water. This reduces the exhaust sound level, however the products of combustion enter the water directly. TC-W3, (ashless boat oil) has an additive (detergent) package made up of organic substances to reduce water pollution. TC-W3 organic additive package will not withstand the much higher piston area temperatures our Rotax aircraft engine experience.

Our API-TC (low ash) oil for use in our aircraft Rotax aircraft engines has a additive (detergent) package made up of metallic substances (heavy metals) . This additive package is what allows piston area protection at much higher temperatures.

True API-TC oil users make up up a small percentage of the market, so oil companies have reformulated TC-W boat oil to also pass the minimum API-TC test standards. This fits all engines oil blend is like a “one size fits all” piece of clothing. I believe this dual purpose oil blend must contain the low temperature operation organic additive package or it couldn’t be used in a watercraft.

I would recommend you use only a specified standalone API-TC oil to protect your Rotax aircraft engine. Rotax has documents referring to correct operating fluids, including two stroke oil.

Regards John Baker iRMT 3852

 

[etemplet]

It does not equally apply to our watercraft engines and he says so in the writing. Watercraft oil "has to be TCW-3" to be used in boats and the oil also passes API-TC. Lucas also passes the JASO FB designation so it is good to go. I think some people are getting hung up on the designation TCW-3 as it was applied in the past.

Also note:The stand alone recommendation is for Aircraft engines because they run a lot higher cylinder head temperatures than watercraft.

I'm not passionate either way. If not for COVID I'd still be running Mystic 4 but we don't have that round here.

 

[mikidymac]

Where do you get that watercraft oil has to be used in boats? Seadoo specially requires API-TC oil in their watercraft not boat oil, not marine oil.
Yes, the dead horse is waiting outside.

Seadoo skis make more power per cc than any of the outboards or skis requiring TCW-3 oil which is why Seadoo requires a higher spec oil.

In the end run what you want even if it’s wrong [emoji6].

 

[racerxxx]

I'm not debating just injecting my logic as twisted and demented as it may be, lol.


LOOK UNDER YOUR SEATS!

Use only Bombardier Rotax Synthetic Two Stroke Oil.

Now for the kicker..... Ash less and BIODEGRADABLE

But wait, tcw3 is bio, not apc-ti, wait, what? The other guys might not make their apc-ti oil biodegradable but Bombardier does. Castrol used to make the oil for Bombardier for years, now it's redline.... Right where you want to keep the tach needle...hahahaha sorry had to

So to sign a dollar value to it.

Bombardier oil @ $47 a gallon
Whatever brand @ $30 a gallon

Based on 40 gallons to 1 gallon of oil

Bomb oil per gallon of gas $1.17

Whatever oil per gallon of gas $0.75

It's literally $0.42 per gallon of gas difference.

Taxes were not included this was just cost of oil.

I've been riding skidoo snowmobiles since the 80's and have been riding seadoo's since the real early 90's and I've ALWAYS used the recommended Bombardier oil in them. Before you tell me it's too expensive stop..... Oil injected skis use 1 gallon of oil with 40 gallons of gas(@ WOT). I would burn that much in a weekend almost every weekend in the 90's, we had 2 96 XP's. My speedster is set up for pre mix. Every tank I burn is a gallon of oil plus the 40 gallons of gas. That's $142 every weekend I want to have fun. Stop nickle and diming over oil. I know, I know, the dealer is 100 miles away, they're never open when I need them, I always forget to stop...... Mine is 2.5 miles and I still order online and have it shipped in for free. No one is buying Lucas or mystic, or Quicksilver cause they read the specs and it's light years better than seadoo oil, they're buying it cause it costs less plain and simple. You can argue that that's not true but at the end of the day it's the dollars and cents your saving is why you're not buying it.

 

[etemplet]

Where do you get that watercraft oil has to be used in boats? Seadoo specially requires API-TC oil in their watercraft not boat oil, not marine oil.
Yes, the dead horse is waiting outside.

Seadoo skis make more power per cc than any of the outboards or skis requiring TCW-3 oil which is why Seadoo requires a higher spec oil.

In the end run what you want even if it’s wrong [emoji6].

I believe it is a labling issue. Lucas Technician told me that TCW-3 oil was required for watercraft. So TCW-3 means it has the biodegradable detergents which is likely a Federal Mandate. As the guy says in the article you posted..." it is sort of a "One size fits all". So the oils can have the biodegradable detergents and also be API-TC approved. All oils used on watercraft BETTER meet the TCW-3 designation whether they advertise it or not. So.... it is a labling issue.

I don't see the API-TC de;signation on QuickSliver oil and I'll bet it is still an approved oil to use and a good one. A phone call to them would verify.

One has to remember that oil has come a really long way in 20years. What was a high end oil years ago is proabably industry standard today.

Personally what I believe the problem was with the NON API-TC was the lower grade additives leaving deposits on the rave valves and in the engine because of the higher temperatures and pressures. You got a cleaner burn. So now, this can likely be meet with the TCW-3 oils. As you say.... it all runs no matter what and here in Louisiana lots of skis ran the outboard oil.

Like you say brother.... in the end the ski will run on anything. LOL And again... I like Mystic 4 but can't get it here for some reason.

 

[etemplet]

Good discussion.

1996 was 24 years ago so as I mention oil has come a long way. . Also.... product prices are based on NAME RECOGNITION. People pay just for the name. That is why Havoline has a race team that cost them $20million a year. Chevron bought Texaco and quickly saw the cost savings of cutting $20million. Because of product recognition... win on Sunday Sell on Monday they kept the team. So it is all big business. Specs don't lie... tests don't lie. If it meets the spec it is good to use. Simple as that. Any API-TC oil works. As you say... your $$ spend them where you want. no problem here for me.

It is good to keep in mind that 97% of what goes through your engine is gasoline. I run higher octane because it is much better for the engine. I believe running that and the API-TC rated oil keeps the engines in a better mood. LOL

Another note - The Lucas rep told me that the Land & Sea which was about $16.00 a gallon (?) was not approved for water craft. One could argue that it is API-TC rated so it will work and it probably will. BUT Land & Sea does not have the TCW-3 designation so it is not approved for watercarft. Remember our oil goes directy into the water. I do my homework as we all should. In the end... individual choice.

All good stuff. Touchdowns everyone.

 

[mikidymac]

There’s no federal or any mandate for 2-stroke oil. Trust me you will never get pulled over and asked what oil you are running especially since right on your ski it says to only use API-TC oil. Clearly the Lucas idiot on the phone has no clue about his own oil.

 

[amcreativ]

At $18.99 for 946mL for Amsoil Interceptor oil, it's a big price to pay, but I know I'm getting the right oil in my ski. I don't mess around with anything else.

 

[JeremyD615]

I would absolutely NOT run that Lucas Land & Sea. I’m with Miki on the dual-rated oils being insufficient for Rotax applications, and I had to be converted to get to that opinion. TC-W3 and API-TC ratings are a one or the other thing. You can’t have a dual rated oil, because the ash content requirements are different. TC-W3 is a no-ash oil, while API-TC is a low-ash oil. You’ll also notice that the Land & Sea says that it meets API-TC and JASO FB. That JASO rating tells me that this oil is of questionable quality. There are some oils that carry those two ratings or have in the past. ALL of those other oils were non-synthetic though. For Lucas to state that rating tells me that it would not meet the more stringent, and more common, FC or FD ratings that apply to synthetic and semi-synthetic oils. The big difference between FB and the others are the detergent and lubricity requirements, so it’s a definite cause for concern that it’s labeled that way...