Looking at Sea-Doo Boats...

[LMychajluk]

Hi, all! First post here...

I've been mulling over the idea of buying a boat. I have no boating experience, but am looking to take the ABS course soon to see what I'm getting into. If I decide to go ahead with this, I'll probably want to buy in the fall or winter to have it for next summer.

If I decide to go for it, I'd probably be looking at a late model Speedster or maybe an Islandia (430hp versions). A Challenger SE may be an option, but it could be a tad wide to tow around here on a regular basis (can't seem to find any definitive info on trailers from the DMV or DOT....). I live in NJ, just outside of Manhattan, and would use the boat for cruising with friends around NY Harbor, Hudson River, LI Sound, the NJ coast and maybe some lakes in NY & PA. I'm not into water skiiing, but will probaly want to have some type of inflatable tow toy to play around with, but otherwise, I mainly want it to hang with friends on the water. I may also want to use it for some light fishing now and again (mostly freshwater). As far as I can tell (from my very limited experience), either of these models should be capable of handling these uses. Any comments are welcome, though!

Right now, I'm also trying to work out some logistics, and would be interested to hear from other boaters in areas where it gets cold in winter. I live in a condo, and though I have a garage, it's somewhat on the small side and probably can't accomodate a boat (maybe a Speedster 180, but it would be tight...). Where do you leave your boat during the season if you can't keep it in your own yard? Some of the Self-Stor places have trailer parking available, but at $150-200/mo, it's a bit steep, and at that price, it may be worth leaving the boat in the water if I can get a slip for the season. If I do that, any concerns with barnacles, etc... in brackish water like the Hudson? Off season, my family has property in upstate NY where I can leave the boat. Should I be concerned with leaving a (properly winterized) boat out in the elements during the winter? I would probably wrap it, and definitely cover it, but would the cover hold snow, is the cold bad for the hull, etc??? There's a possibility that I may also be able to get it into a garage on the property, but it's not heated.

Anything else I need to be thinking of? I've been lurking here for a week or two and have read most of the threads in the Boats section, but any additional links to general information that you think I may find useful would also be appreciated!

Thanks!

-Lee

 

[Craigmri]

Lee,

Welcome to the forum.

You provided some good information on what you want in your description but left out some others.

Have you ever towed a boat before? Do you even want to tow a boat? what kind of vehicle do you have if you really want to tow a boat?

You mention mostly salt water and the possibility of leaving it in the water. Seadoos are really not designed to be left in the Salt water of extended periods. Boats that stay in salt water must be bottom painted with antifouling paint. On a jet boat I can see barnicles growing inside the jet pump ruining performance in a matter of weeks.

Have you considered keeping a boat in a "High and Dry marina? No trailering involved and the boat stays out of the water when not in use. This would be better suited for a Jet boat than keeping it in the water all summer.

The waters you mentioned can get pretty choppy. Seadoo's are not good ocean going vessels. If your really thinking about going off shore of New Jersey you really want a deep V at least 21'(prefereably larger).

My advice to you since your new to boating is to take that course your referring to(kudos to you for that) then rent a 20-foot-ish boat for the day and see you you like it and go from there.

Craig

 

[LMychajluk]

Thanks, these were exactly the types of things I was looking for (ie, not good to leave a jet boat in salt water...).

As for towing, I have an 4WD Chevy Avalanche w/ the 4.10 limited-slip rear. Its rated to tow 8k lbs, so I don't think I'd have a problem with the weight of these boats. I haven't towed a boat, but I have towed cars. Besides the launching/retrieving and tie-down methods, is there a big difference when towing a boat? I wouldn't mind doing it, but it does sometimes get congested around here, so would look to minimize towing if possible.

I'll have to look more into the marinas... There's not a ton of them around here, and most of them don't seem to have web sites, so it's difficult to find out what types of services they provide.

-Lee

 

[Craigmri]

Lee,

What I refer to about trailering a boat mostly is focused on the boat ramp life. You have trailering experience and have a stout tow vehicle so no worries there. Just be prepared that Launching and retrieving a boat is a learned process that most can do but many do not enjoy the process as many times you have dozens of boats trying to lauch and or retrieve...People often get impatient and nasty etc...

Go to a popular boat ramp on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon to experience what I'm referring to. You'll also learn alot by just observing.

Craig

 

[LMychajluk]

...
The waters you mentioned can get pretty choppy. Seadoo's are not good ocean going vessels. If your really thinking about going off shore of New Jersey you really want a deep V at least 21'(prefereably larger).
...
Craig

Okay, now you got me reading up on hull configurations.:ack:

I came across this review on the Challenger:
http://www.sea-doo.com/NR/rdonlyres...0/230ChallengerBoatTestBoatingWorld_Jan09.pdf

In that artcle, it mentions a 21' deadrise. I went to compare that to the Islandia and Speedster. Well, it looks like the 2006 Islandia has a deadrise of 16' and the '06 Speedster 20'. In 2007, both had 20', and in 2008, both were increased to 21'. I would never have thought to check the deadrise on older models before you mentioned that, so thanks!

The areas I plan on using it I wouldn't really consider 'off shore', more like bays and harbors (Would you consider coastal waters within ~1 mile of the coast 'off shore'?). I guess the sound could get a little rough when it's windy, but I work right on the Hudson across from Manhattan, right where it opens up into NY Harbor, so I see the river every day, and most of the time the water doesn't look any more choppy than some lakes I've canoe'd or kayaked on. I would guess most of my boating would be from the Statue of Liberty up the Hudson. Based on your comments, and a video from another member playing on the Hudson in his Speedster 180, it looks like the later models should handle the areas I'd like to boat on just fine, so I guess I'll just have to look for an '08 or newer!

I also took a ride after work today to check out some local public boat ramps here in the Meadowlands, just to see the layouts. One I couldn't find, one looked like it was shut down (locked gates, etc...), and the third didn't look too bad tucked away in a small park, but there really didn't seem to be anywhere (indicated, anyway) in the area to leave the trailer while you were out. It had a concrete ramp, but no real 'dock' to pull the boat up to to allow boarding, though it may be possible to walk along this narrow beam on the bulkhead in order to get in. I'd be a little nervous about drifting up onto the concrete ramp, though... There's another ramp that is right under the GW bridge that I'll have to check out, and one of these weekends, I'll make it a point to visit some of the marinas in the area and get a sense of thier services and costs.

How about maintenance on the Sea-Doos, and the Rotax engines, compared to other types of boats? In general, easier / harder to deal with? The closed-loop cooling system sounds like a plus, but how about things like:
1) Post use cleanup?
2) What's involved in 'flushing' the system (I've seen some mention about hooking up a hose to the engines)?
3) Periodic engine maintenace (more / less frequent than other types of engines)?

I'm also still interested in anyone from the Northern climes comments on how they deal with winter storage.

Thanks again, Craig (and anyone else that wants to chime in)!

-Lee

 

[Craigmri]

Lee,

In terms of maintenance there isnt a whole lot but then again there are maintenance items for sure.

Lets begin with flushing. Since your talking about a "newer" Seadoo so I'm referencing the Rotax 4-tec closed loop cooling system motors. While they are closed loop with a "Glycol based coolant" inside, you will still perform a "flush" after salt water use but what your flushing is only the exhaust manifold as thats whats being cooled by raw sea water when underway. Its an easy process when you install a quick connect fitting on the boat. All you'll do is start the boat, snap on the hose and start water flow for 30 seconds or so then stop water flow then stop engine. Simple!

Maintenance: They use the Rotax 4-tec engine is all the newer boats but they come in different states of tune and single or twin engine configurations. So, you can get a 155hp, 215hp or 255hp engine. The 155hp is normally aspirated whereas the 215 and 255hp engines are supercharged. The Normally aspirated engines require a 10 hour service, a 50 hour service and then every 50 hours after that. Its pretty much oil changes and occassional coolant changes, spark plugs etc.. Simple. Its gets a little more complicated on the 215 and 255hp engines as the supercharger requires rebuilding as per Seadoo every 100 hours. On a twin engine boat with 430hp or 510hp this can be a very pricey service as your rebuilding two superchargers!!! The parts alone are $300 per kit so thats $600 for the parts plus labor unless you do it yourself. 100 hours for you in NY might be every few years but in Florida thats one season easy if you run your boat alot.

Thats pretty much it for maintenance. The other main consideration with jet boats is the pump that propels the boat. If you suck up debris such as sticks, shell, sand, ski rope etc.. It can damage the wear ring and or impeller. This is another area that unless your handy can get expensive. Most of us during our learning curve have done something like this and you eventually become hypersensitive to the things that Jet boats do not like and you learn to avoid these pitfalls when possible.

Most of us have found that while there is some downside to jetboating, the upside is far greater. You cannot get the same performance from a typical propeller powered vessel. Bow rise is next to nothing, hole shot is much faster, accelleration is a rush and they handle like sports cars when on plane. Most people that complain about jet boats probably have never been aboard one because once you get a taste of it your hooked.

Craig

 

[livewir]

wouldn't it be great if they made a dual 155HP 4-tec Challenger 180? 310HP with no supercharger?!

Well, maybe by the time I'm ready to upgrade that will be on the market

 

[Craigmri]

I agree

:agree:

I doubt the current design would permit such a fitment but I agree that would be a great boat!

Craig

wouldn't it be great if they made a dual 155HP 4-tec Challenger 180? 310HP with no supercharger?!

Well, maybe by the time I'm ready to upgrade that will be on the market

 

[LMychajluk]

Rebuild the superchargers every 100 hrs? Really? I'll admit, I'm not the most mechanically-inclined guy, but I like things with engines, and on a car/truck, aren't superchargers pretty much a maintenance-free item? Looking at the RPMs these boats make, it doesn't seem like the superchargers are taxed all that much more than they would be in a car. What's so special about them that they need to be re-built (what seems to me) so often?

Also, is there an engine hour timer in the instruments? I didn't see one mentioned while I was flipping thorugh the online owners manuals...

 

[kustomkarl]

Most seadoo boats don't have an hour meter except in the mpem of the unit. The dealer knows how many hours so an add on one is necessary.

In jet boats, the worse thing for the super chargers is the wave jumping...the rpm's max out and hit the water which is a stand still thing causing the washers to fatigue in the super charger pumps from the stress. Their job is keep the pumps from destroying themselves and absorbing the over load...Some fatigue quicker than others with varying factors. Replacements should be done on pre-09 modles to the new upgraded washers. Like were done on my buddies boat...just because, so no imidiate problems to happen.


Karl

 

[Craigmri]

Hour meter

Lee,

Most of the newer Seadoos have an hour meter in the electronic cluster. No matter, the MPEM(engine computer) records hours and a host of other usage information.

As for the supercharger, its a point of frustration but it is what it is.....Its something that spins at like 40,000 RPMS(I think) and can ruin an engine if it blows. Its been a big issue on Seadoo boats for a few years now but its just another item to maintain is all. With an I/O boat you have other issues to service so it all evens out in the wash. If you didnt want to touch a supercharged boat for personal reasons you can get a Challenger 230 with the 310hp package and it has no superchargers.

Craig

Rebuild the superchargers every 100 hrs? Really? I'll admit, I'm not the most mechanically-inclined guy, but I like things with engines, and on a car/truck, aren't superchargers pretty much a maintenance-free item? Looking at the RPMs these boats make, it doesn't seem like the superchargers are taxed all that much more than they would be in a car. What's so special about them that they need to be re-built (what seems to me) so often?

Also, is there an engine hour timer in the instruments? I didn't see one mentioned while I was flipping thorugh the online owners manuals...

 

[LMychajluk]

I think I've found a couple of '09 Speedsters within reasonable distance selling for ~$28k. There's one on eBay for $27,200, but I'd have to have it shipped, which would cost me another $750-1000. Any thoughts on that price? Think I can do better?

 

[Craigmri]

Lee,

You talkin' 310hp or 430hp?

Craig

 

[LMychajluk]

430... I think that's the only option on the '09 Speedster.
:rofl:

 

[Craigmri]

Twin

So long as you realize you will have TWO supercharger rebuilds at 100 hours.

Craig

430... I think that's the only option on the '09 Speedster.
:rofl:

 

[LMychajluk]

Yeah, I know... I just kinda like the idea of the second engine ICE. Also, aren't the dual engine boats a bit more manuverable (it can get crowded up here in NYC....)?

BTW, how's the 180 on gas, & how fast is it? There's a 180 SE with the 255hp for sale at my closest dealer. And it comes in blue.

 

[Craigmri]

Twin

Lee,

I agree the slow speed manueverability is better on the twin engine boats in my opinion. Be aware that the Speedster 200 used to come with twin 155's totaling 310hp and they have no superchargers...Might want to look out for a left over one of those?? Also the Utopia 205's come with a 310hp package.

As for the Challenger 180......I have no fuel consumption data yet as I just got mine. Most guys are seeing mid 40's with the 215hp. I'm told the 255hp is good for 50 to 52 MPH.

Craig

Yeah, I know... I just kinda like the idea of the second engine ICE. Also, aren't the dual engine boats a bit more manuverable (it can get crowded up here in NYC....)?

BTW, how's the 180 on gas, & how fast is it? There's a 180 SE with the 255hp for sale at my closest dealer. And it comes in blue.