Hello, New to the Forum, Looking to buy a Small Seadoo, Looking for a little help

[DanLexani]

Hello, I'm new here and recommended by a seller. I'm looking to pick up a little Seadoo spedster, sportster, challanger, bombardeer and the likes. BTW why so many models when some look exactly the same!?
It would be my first boat and i'm still a little wet around the ears but am a quick learner.

Any general things to look for would be greatly appreciated, as well as any general questions you could recommend when looking at one.

One in particular that i am looking at :

http://prntscr.com/7uxrjl
http://prntscr.com/7uxrrf
http://prntscr.com/7uxrwv

Seller says it needs a battery, the oil pumps have been removed (which i guess means that the oil needs mixed directly with the gas), few cracks (the old plastic trim around the drivers storage area) and dents and dings, but runs great.

Anything i should be worried about here? What new questions should i ask?

Is the removal of the oil pumps something i should look for in other similar boats as well? I've been around 2 stroke motorcycles for a while, i get the concept, and with a boat i get why it would be a good thing to do if these things are prone to failing with age.... but am i missing something?

Also, are 2 strokes or older boats like these restricted at all around california/nevada lakes/rivers?

Thank You very Much for any help

 

[Dr Honda]

Unless it's a great price... I would walk away from it. The reason is... the Rotax engines use the oil system to lube the rotary valve gears. Also... the injection pumps are SUPER reliable. So, there is no reason to remove the oil injection. Also... some people don't know any better, and when they remove it... they wind up running the rotary valve gears dry... and they eat themselves.

The second thing is.....

The comment of "It needs a battery" is almost always a way for the seller to have deniability when you go to run it the first time, and it's a hunk of crap. (lol) For the price of the battery, compared to the boat... I would expect it to run. It's not like this is a $100 basket case. So, just tell they guy... if you want to sell it... put a battery in it.

Third.........

If you are expecting to buy it, and just use it... then you better go out on a water ride. (Just like test driving a car) Make sure it starts and runs. Make sure there aren't any major running issues. Make sure it doesn't overheat. Make sure you can turn it off in the water, and take a 10 minute break... and it will re-start in the water. (that's a big one)

NEVER just listen to it run on the trailer !!!!!!!!!!!! An engine that is half dead, may start up without a load on it. ALso, you have no idea if the pump (s) are in good condition without a water ride.


With that all said... these are older boats... and condition always dictates price.

One last thing... in Cali... there's a lot of lakes that have banned 2-strokes. SO, before getting one... verify that that lake you want to play on is OK with them.




Now, as far as your question of... "why do they look the same?" Basically, they had 3 hulls in the 90's. There was a 14', an 18', and a 20'. The different models had different options and engines. OK... there was a 16' for a couple years... but they are an odd-ball. (Like the SK with twin 720 engines)


Good luck.

 

[DanLexani]

man thank you for all the helpfull info.

so removing the oil pumps are a no-no..

in this case they are asking 2800$ bucks... and may take an offer as well since it is craigslist after all... basically the lowest priced one at the moment.

however my budget is up to 4k so i don't necessarily need to look at the cheapest one...

so i gather asking people to meet at a place where we can test run it is not too much to ask when buying one? in my head i was planning to at least have people hook it up to a water hose and have it run for a good half an hour for the things you mentioned like over heating... .also to stop it and restart it some time after. but you are right... the load on it would not be the same as running it on actual water...

i agree the battery thing is such an easy thing and generally looks worse on the seller when trying to sell then to just get one to begin with... i did ask him so if i bring a battery jumping power pack would that take care of starting it for testing purposes? he said yeah that should take care of it...

 

[Dr Honda]

Not a prob. I'm here to help.

OK, there's a few points to reflect on, in your new post.

man thank you for all the helpfull info.

so removing the oil pumps are a no-no..

Generally... on a Rotax... yes. There are a some people who know about the gears, and they leave the tank in place, and hooked to the lower, just to let a little oil circulate. But the down side of that is... who knows how old the oil is? in the OEM condition... you burn the oil, and eventually put in fresh. So it's always getting changed.

in this case they are asking 2800$ bucks... and may take an offer as well since it is craigslist after all... basically the lowest priced one at the moment.

however my budget is up to 4k so i don't necessarily need to look at the cheapest one...

Since you have a $4k budget... I'm sure you will find a nice one. Keep looking around.

so i gather asking people to meet at a place where we can test run it is not too much to ask when buying one?

Absolutely not. If they are confident in the boat... why would they argue? The people who won't want to, are the ones who know there are issues. But then again... if you are good with your hands... you can get one cheap, that need some love. All of my water toys are restorations.

in my head i was planning to at least have people hook it up to a water hose and have it run for a good half an hour for the things you mentioned like over heating... .also to stop it and restart it some time after. but you are right... the load on it would not be the same as running it on actual water...

OK... this is actually a bad idea with a Seadoo/Rotax boat. First... the cooling system is hard to get enough water to properly cool the engine, while on the garden hose. It's basically just to flush salt water out of the engine. (or other junk)

Second, the driveshaft seal is lubed, and cooled via the lake water. So... when you are on the hose... the seal will overheat, and eat itself. It's not an instant thing... but, I recommend not running for more than a few minutes on the hose.

Even when trying to find a problem... you have to put it in a lake.

i agree the battery thing is such an easy thing and generally looks worse on the seller when trying to sell then to just get one to begin with... i did ask him so if i bring a battery jumping power pack would that take care of starting it for testing purposes? he said yeah that should take care of it...

A regular "Jump pack" is ok. BUT... NEVER jump start a seadoo with a running vehicle, or while hooked to a charger !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's the deal.

The MPEM (computer) is SUPER sensitive to over voltage. It's a known issue, that if you "Jump Start" a seadoo with a running vehicle, or charger... that once it starts... you will get a voltage spike, and you can wipe out the computer. If that happens... 1) You may not be able to find a boat MPEM and 2) If you find one... expect to pay $900 or more for it.

The PWC MPEM's are easier to come by... but they are still $200.

SO... don't do it. It's always safest to put a good battery in the boat or PWC, and let it do it's job.

 

[DanLexani]

damn, you are the man. lots of info to digest. much appreciated.

one other thing to bother you with....
trying to compare it with cars or motorcycles, which i'm fairly familiar with, can you equate an average annual service on these type of boats?
that is assuming nothing extra broke or needs service, what is a basic annual service on these? engine oil, spark plugs.... gets blurry after that.
and lastly, this regular annual service mentioned above... what is an average price for it at the dealer....i understand it depends on location a lot but again... just average.. something where it's not a "hookup" nor getting gauged..

 

[Dr Honda]

Assuming that everthing is OK..... and also throwing out "Damage" or "Breakage"....


The normal annual maintance is almost nothing.

1) In the off season... (or once a year) you change the oil in the pumps. It's literally 3 oz of gear lube. Pop the tail cone, drain it out (wipe it out) put the cone back on... and fill it again with oil.

2) When bringing it back out for the summer.... Run it the first time, to cook out any fogging oils, and then change the spark plugs.


That's it. There is a procedure for winterizing... but if you are somewhere warm (SoCal) then it's really not an issue, since you will only have a month of two that it may not get used. I grew up in Anaheim, and I would run my Ski's almost all year round.



Now... as far as price... it's all over, and some dealers may not work on it for you. You will generaly have to find an independent shop. But personally... it's so easy... there's no reason to pay a shop $200 to winterize it, when it's 20 minutes worth of work, and a few $$$ worth of supplies.


With that said... if you need to pay a shop to work on it... you may not want to get such an old boat. Even if it runs well... you are dealing with a +17 year old water toy. Chances are, it will need something eventually, and it get very expensive. (probably cost prohibitive) and that's why a dealer won't work on it.

 

[DanLexani]

hey, i grew up in Anaheim too! and am now in Orange.

so just oil and plugs.... no lubing?.. the seal you mentioned earlier or other seals?

 

[Isaac-1]

Given your location I would suggest looking for a fresh water only boat, even if you have to travel a bit to get it. I was in the same place you are a month ago, and ended up buying a fixer upper 18 ft Sportster 1800 with twin 720's for $2,200 last week of June, I knew it needed a new engine / major engine work going in on one engine, found a good pull out engine nearby before i bought it, but it has somewhat turned into a money pit nickle and diming me. (I have spend over $550 on the trailer alone, new LED lights, wheel hub, 2 new wheels, and tires, new swing down jack (handle broke off hooking it up to my truck when I bought it), new whinch, 2 new plastic fenders, old ones were hanging by 1 bolt each, etc. This was all on what on casual glance looks like a fairly good galvenized trailer on a fresh water only boat.

So far my $2200 fixer upper is at $4,400+ with 3 weeks of ownership, a new to me engine, new CDI ignition, new engine relay, 2 new wear rings, a new impeller to replace the banged up on (old one would probably work, but I found a good one on ebay cheap and it is an odd 1 off year big hub impeller), new battery becuase the old one will not hold a charge, and now new carbon rings because it takes on water around the shaft on one side, so I might as well do both and get it over with. I will probably spend another $1,500 on the boat before I am done with new upholstery (mine is functional, but starting to crack), hydro turf mats to prevent slipping and a new bimini top as mine as a number of pin holes. The one good thing I can say though is my boat has no salt water corrosion.

Having said all that I am fixing things up right with a good Optima blue top AGM battery, LED trailer lights all around, etc. Still I have to wonder if I could have found a lake ready boat easier, the answer is maybe yes, and maybe no, in my shopping the cheapest lake ready Sportster 1800 I found was over $5,000 and who knows if it was really lake ready...


Now a crash course on 1990's Seadoo boats, basically these were built from about 1994 - 1999, they got bigger and more powerful as the years went on. Engines were either single or double, 657's, 717's or 787's and boats were 14, 16 or 18 ft. In 2000 most switched to being powered by a single mercury branded V6 jet drive, although some were powered by the Rotax 951, the Rotax 4 strokes came out in 2004, and were in all boats by 2006.

The smallest boats were 4 passenger 750 pound weight capacity 14 ft boats (some were 5 passenger 750 pound weight capacity boats) These may be fine for a family with small children, but I wanted something that could carry at least 4 200 plus pound adults, plus ice chest, gear, etc. and not be over its weight rating, therefore I ended up getting the Sporster 1800 with a 7 passenger 1245 pound capacity.

On the engines, there are pros and cons to the 717/720 vs the 787/800, the 787 puts out more power, and is a more advanced engine design with RAVE variable exhaust valves, and variable timing, but also require more maintenances cleaning and adjusting the RAVE vavles, plus is dependent on the nearly unobtainable MPEM computer for the variable timing. By contrast the 720's fixed timing can allow for the MPEM to be bypassed with limited loss of function (idle rev limiter) if the MPEM ever goes out, with just a bit of creative wiring (this also bypasses the DESS sercurity key) as Seadoo left a design flaw in the 97-99 720 boats where the CDI is not controlled directly by the MPEM like it is on the 787 boats. (in other words you can hot wire a 720 boat). The 717 engines are also cheaper to replace / rebuild than the 787 by about 25%.

One note here on model names, in general the Speedster is the small go fast boat, the Sportster was the middle of the line, and the challenger was all the bells and whistles, plus largest engine. The confusion here is when you start looking at different years, or maybe a single engine Challenger vs a twin engine Sportster of a given year. Or even a 16 ft Sportster or Challenger vs the very different Sportster 1800 or Challenger 1800

Ike

 

[Dr Honda]

hey, i grew up in Anaheim too! and am now in Orange.

so just oil and plugs.... no lubing?.. the seal you mentioned earlier or other seals?

Depending on the year, the only "Lube" is a grease nipple on the PTO. One pump a year is about all it needs.

If anything else breaks... we are hear to help you fix it.


FYI... I graduated Savanna High in 89. I miss the nice weather, but I haven't moved back because of the politics, and the crazy housing market.

 

[mattbraafhart]

I have to agree with what others have said very good advice, and I too prefer the 720 engine, much easier to work on and less expensive too, simpler designs usually last longer. I live where it freezes hard in the winter so the engines get winterized every fall which I highly recommend you do yourself, it's a good overall crash course in how your engines work and where things can go wrong, and why you should not run the engines on a garden hose for very long.

 

[robing]

I just got my 2000 challenger 5672 about month ago. Looked at several for $2500-7000
Got lucky and found mine with 26 original hours from a old lady who's husband bought it new in 2000 when he was 73. Poor dude died at 74 and it sat ever since. Needless to say carbs needed help( just did both myself thanks to this forum)
Basically what I'm saying is keep looking. They are out there. My advantage was that it's not my first boat.
Don't get screwed!! Best day for boat owners- the day u sell your bucket and get a better one.

 

[Nike12000]

damn, you are the man. lots of info to digest. much appreciated.

one other thing to bother you with....
trying to compare it with cars or motorcycles, which i'm fairly familiar with, can you equate an average annual service on these type of boats?
that is assuming nothing extra broke or needs service, what is a basic annual service on these? engine oil, spark plugs.... gets blurry after that.
and lastly, this regular annual service mentioned above... what is an average price for it at the dealer....i understand it depends on location a lot but again... just average.. something where it's not a "hookup" nor getting gauged..

Boats are holes in the water you toss your money , plugs, stabil, lube, oil, grease, wear rings, ect deff an investment but well worth it!

 

[Isaac-1]

Nike, what you say is true, it is even more true of the type that live in the water 24x7x365, with them the throwing of money is manditory, not optional like it is on the kind you put on a trailer when you are done for the day and bring them home.

 

[Dr Honda]

Boats are holes in the water you toss your money , plugs, stabil, lube, oil, grease, wear rings, ect deff an investment but well worth it!

That's why I start with broken boats. That way there's no question, and you get them cheap. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people buy a boat or PWC at a premium, because they ran good, and were super clean... to only have to drop a few thou because the engines finally gave out. (They don't last forever)

 

[DanLexani]

Given your location I would suggest looking for a fresh water only boat, even if you have to travel a bit to get it. I was in the same place you are a month ago, and ended up buying a fixer upper 18 ft Sportster 1800 with twin 720's for $2,200 last week of June, I knew it needed a new engine / major engine work going in on one engine, found a good pull out engine nearby before i bought it, but it has somewhat turned into a money pit nickle and diming me. (I have spend over $550 on the trailer alone, new LED lights, wheel hub, 2 new wheels, and tires, new swing down jack (handle broke off hooking it up to my truck when I bought it), new whinch, 2 new plastic fenders, old ones were hanging by 1 bolt each, etc. This was all on what on casual glance looks like a fairly good galvenized trailer on a fresh water only boat.

So far my $2200 fixer upper is at $4,400+ with 3 weeks of ownership, a new to me engine, new CDI ignition, new engine relay, 2 new wear rings, a new impeller to replace the banged up on (old one would probably work, but I found a good one on ebay cheap and it is an odd 1 off year big hub impeller), new battery becuase the old one will not hold a charge, and now new carbon rings because it takes on water around the shaft on one side, so I might as well do both and get it over with. I will probably spend another $1,500 on the boat before I am done with new upholstery (mine is functional, but starting to crack), hydro turf mats to prevent slipping and a new bimini top as mine as a number of pin holes. The one good thing I can say though is my boat has no salt water corrosion.

Having said all that I am fixing things up right with a good Optima blue top AGM battery, LED trailer lights all around, etc. Still I have to wonder if I could have found a lake ready boat easier, the answer is maybe yes, and maybe no, in my shopping the cheapest lake ready Sportster 1800 I found was over $5,000 and who knows if it was really lake ready...


Now a crash course on 1990's Seadoo boats, basically these were built from about 1994 - 1999, they got bigger and more powerful as the years went on. Engines were either single or double, 657's, 717's or 787's and boats were 14, 16 or 18 ft. In 2000 most switched to being powered by a single mercury branded V6 jet drive, although some were powered by the Rotax 951, the Rotax 4 strokes came out in 2004, and were in all boats by 2006.

The smallest boats were 4 passenger 750 pound weight capacity 14 ft boats (some were 5 passenger 750 pound weight capacity boats) These may be fine for a family with small children, but I wanted something that could carry at least 4 200 plus pound adults, plus ice chest, gear, etc. and not be over its weight rating, therefore I ended up getting the Sporster 1800 with a 7 passenger 1245 pound capacity.

On the engines, there are pros and cons to the 717/720 vs the 787/800, the 787 puts out more power, and is a more advanced engine design with RAVE variable exhaust valves, and variable timing, but also require more maintenances cleaning and adjusting the RAVE vavles, plus is dependent on the nearly unobtainable MPEM computer for the variable timing. By contrast the 720's fixed timing can allow for the MPEM to be bypassed with limited loss of function (idle rev limiter) if the MPEM ever goes out, with just a bit of creative wiring (this also bypasses the DESS sercurity key) as Seadoo left a design flaw in the 97-99 720 boats where the CDI is not controlled directly by the MPEM like it is on the 787 boats. (in other words you can hot wire a 720 boat). The 717 engines are also cheaper to replace / rebuild than the 787 by about 25%.

One note here on model names, in general the Speedster is the small go fast boat, the Sportster was the middle of the line, and the challenger was all the bells and whistles, plus largest engine. The confusion here is when you start looking at different years, or maybe a single engine Challenger vs a twin engine Sportster of a given year. Or even a 16 ft Sportster or Challenger vs the very different Sportster 1800 or Challenger 1800

Ike

^^lots of info in there. i speed read it and i definitely have to read it again a couple of times and digest it. much appreciated. i would have to say that i am looking for water ready as much as possible. i do not have the time nor the will to start this hobby with fixer uppers and learn everything. i did it when i was younger with cars and motorcycles but i don't even have a fraction of the time on my hands that i had then... and i still spend the little that i do have on cars and motorcycles still.

Depending on the year, the only "Lube" is a grease nipple on the PTO. One pump a year is about all it needs.

If anything else breaks... we are hear to help you fix it.


FYI... I graduated Savanna High in 89. I miss the nice weather, but I haven't moved back because of the politics, and the crazy housing market.

got it! yeah i ended up graduating from magnolia... actually moved to anaheim my senior year. sucky school system to say the last. my year they were in danger of losing their accreditation because of poor test scores. i was coming from warren high in downey which was riding pretty high on results.. everything else you mentioned is pretty much on par.. what can you do..

I have to agree with what others have said very good advice, and I too prefer the 720 engine, much easier to work on and less expensive too, simpler designs usually last longer. I live where it freezes hard in the winter so the engines get winterized every fall which I highly recommend you do yourself, it's a good overall crash course in how your engines work and where things can go wrong, and why you should not run the engines on a garden hose for very long.

I just got my 2000 challenger 5672 about month ago. Looked at several for $2500-7000
Got lucky and found mine with 26 original hours from a old lady who's husband bought it new in 2000 when he was 73. Poor dude died at 74 and it sat ever since. Needless to say carbs needed help( just did both myself thanks to this forum)
Basically what I'm saying is keep looking. They are out there. My advantage was that it's not my first boat.
Don't get screwed!! Best day for boat owners- the day u sell your bucket and get a better one.

sounds like a pretty good find...

and a few more contenders in the running.... really hope to find something by the end of this month. so i can take it out for my birthday and not have to rent one

http://prntscr.com/7va2ks
http://prntscr.com/7va35u
http://prntscr.com/7va5gf -- this one just popped up... looks interesting

 

[Isaac-1]

Well you have 3 different variations on the late 90's Speedsters, a 97 Speedster with a pair of 717's, a 98 with a pair of 787's and a 99 Speedster SK (Ski optimized version) with a pair of 717's. From what I have read people do not like towing water skiers with the 787 powered boats as the RAVE valves tend to open up at about the same speed people like to pull skiers making it hard to keep the boat at a constant speed. I would say all three could be good if they are legit and not scammers. Check seating capacity numbers, I am not sure, but think the SK may be rated for 4 people and the other's at 5, 4 is probably the practical limit either way though.

The real question here is what do you want in a boat? For me I wanted to carry 4+ people in comfort and the greater stability of an 18 ft boat when there was chop on the lake.

 

[DanLexani]

Well you have 3 different variations on the late 90's Speedsters, a 97 Speedster with a pair of 717's, a 98 with a pair of 787's and a 99 Speedster SK (Ski optimized version) with a pair of 717's. From what I have read people do not like towing water skiers with the 787 powered boats as the RAVE valves tend to open up at about the same speed people like to pull skiers making it hard to keep the boat at a constant speed. I would say all three could be good if they are legit and not scammers. Check seating capacity numbers, I am not sure, but think the SK may be rated for 4 people and the other's at 5, 4 is probably the practical limit either way though.

The real question here is what do you want in a boat? For me I wanted to carry 4+ people in comfort and the greater stability of an 18 ft boat when there was chop on the lake.

well, what i'm looking for is fairly small, easy maintenance, and the newer the better all at <$5k. the <97 models seem to offer between 4-7 seats depending on the year and the 98-99 seem to be 4 seats only but with more elbow room. the earlier models i may be able to find either of the 3 models (speed, sport, challanger), whereas the 98-99 looks like i'd be lucky to find only the speedster at that price range.

http://prntscr.com/7vbf1p the layout of the 97. it goes down in seating with the year it seams. the one i posted in the original post, a 93, didnt have the side seat.
http://prntscr.com/7vba50 this seems to be the layout of the 98-99 speedster. 4 seats only but way more elbow room.

edit. i take that back, the 98 seems to have a 5th seat in the front... maybe better then the 99 as far as seating http://prntscr.com/7vc578