Engine not powering down

[anthonymsaad]

With Halloween coming up, I figured we could share some boat related horror stories and add a little bit of comedic relief to cheer some people up.

To start off, my 2012 challenger 210 has been currently sitting at the dealership for 3 months now due to one of the two engines not powering down when the key is out, among other issues. I was curious to know if anyone else has possibly experienced or heard anything about this or even reassurance that the Rotax ECMs aren't prone to failure.

As of yesterday, the dealer a had both ECMs replaced (5 ECMs total), as instructed by Seadoo technical support. Not only does the initial problematic engine still not power down, the other engine won't power down either now. Mechanically, the boat runs perfect, just drains the battery when not running or connected to a battery tender.

Again, wanted to ask and know if anyone has experienced any electrical issues related to the engine or the wiring harness. The dealer has already replaced the gauge cluster, due to the initial problematic engine also reseting its hour meter. Additionally, the second mechanic had inspected the wiring harness and found no issues (The first mechanic gave up after a month).

 

[go_panthers]

That's a new one. I've not had any ECU problems with my 2010 210. Just to clarify, when you say "power down", you don't mean the engine is still running, do you?

What happens if you turn off the battery switch?

 

[anthonymsaad]

Good to know you haven't had ECU problems with your 2010 either! What I mean is that if I were to take the key out of the ignition, the engines remain powered and will kill my batteries in a day or so. Normally, the hour meter would go away when the key is in the off position. Initially, only one of my engines did that. If you were to touch the ECM on the engine that still was powered on, you can feel it being warm due still getting power.

You still can't turn on the engines unless the key is turned all the way. The only way to cut electrical power to the engines is to turn off power from the battery switch.

Really weird stuff. Non of the dealerships around me have even remotely seen or heard of these problems before.

 

[go_panthers]

Wow! So you still see the hour meter with the key out? Mine displays for about 30 seconds after key out, then the display shuts off.

I’m at 204 hours now, just for comparison.

 

[anthonymsaad]

Thank you for the comparison!! Yeah, my hour meter doesn't go away any more. Just stays on. I'm at 129hrs. But, to deal with that, I have to cut the main power off from the battery switch. The other issue is that when on engine is actually powered down, it resets back to 110hrs, which makes turning off the engine annoying. I now have one engine at 129hrs and the other at 110hrs, even though both engines have been run together.

 

[rcookr1]

Sounds like the key assembly might be bad. Or you have a stuck relay. Just my 2 cents would have to look at a wiring diagram. I don't see how a ECU could cause this problem.

 

[10forty2]

Just a thought...... try physically disconnecting the battery cables for about 10-15 minutes and reconnect to see if it will reset something that may be stuck.

 

[go_panthers]

Sounds like the key assembly might be bad. Or you have a stuck relay. Just my 2 cents would have to look at a wiring diagram. I don't see how a ECU could cause this problem.

That is an interesting theory. It could be tested by leaving the battery switch on, key off, and pulling the safety lanyard - I think. The safety lanyard cuts the circuit to the switch, correct?

 

[anthonymsaad]

Thank you so much for those helping me out! Really appreciate the support and some advice, definitely trying all of them. I am sorry for the length of my response, really wanted to thoroughly reply back to all of those that are helping me, hopefully you will have a better understanding of the situation and can help.

To help you guys out, I will provide more information on what testing has been done. So far, the problematic ECM has been replaced 3 times, with the same issues occurring. The ECMs have been swapped with each other, resulting in the other engine having powering issues and the initially problematic engine, powering down fine. After that, and inspecting the wiring harness, 2 more brand new ECMs were installed, one for each engine, simultaneously and thats when both engines don't power down. As of now, the dealer is ordering 2 new wiring harness, which is back ordered till December.

Even if they do replace the harnesses, I still have the issue with the odometer for one engine "reseting". For instance, if I drive it around for 2 hours, starting at 110hrs, both engines read 112hrs. But, when I cut the power to them from the battery switch and turn it back on, the problematic engine that cant power down like it should, will read 110hrs, while the other engine reads 112hrs.


@rcookr1, Since the boat is currently at the dealership, and has been for over 3 months, I cant do much checking on it personally. Because of that time, I do call them for updates and they had told me they had tested the key assembly and, according to them, everything was working as it should having it has the correct voltages. Regarding a stuck relay, I have a feeling thats what it might be, but they have done tests that makes me question it at the same time. When they swapped the ECMs between the engines, the initial problematic engine runs fine and powers down and the issue moves to the other engine's wiring harness. Not sure if there is some internal resistance of the wiring harness that is not compatible with a newer updated ECM, causing a relay to say open or what. Another thought I had was possibly an inductance kickback, coming from the alternator or engine shutting off, causing the relay to stay open. But then again, I think that would damage that wiring harness, and still occur even if the ECM is swapped.

@10forty2, I may have done that. Initially, I went ahead and had my batteries tested, since the voltage gauge was showing a lower than normal voltage. One of my batteries was bad and the other was almost bad and went ahead and replaced both of them, which took over 15min. Few weeks later, when I had the boat in the garage connected to a battery tender, a storm tripped a fuse and didn't notice, which caused both batteries to die and didn't notice that for a day.

@go_panthers, I think the lanyard cuts the engine off, but still has them powered on. Usually with the key out, the engines would power down and no hours will display on the gauge cluster. But even with the key out and pulling on the lanyard, still didn't change anything. I tried checking and used a heat gun and noted that the ECM was significantly warmer than the other engine, indicating it was still receiving power.


Focusing on the hour meter issue, I am trying to figure out if the ECM is storing the hours, during operations, as a floating and changing variable, but when the engines turn off and go through a power down sequence, that floating variable is then converted into a stored value and replaces the old value (the hour before you turned the engines on). So since the engine is still operation, it will continue to count the hours properly, but since it can't go through the power down sequence, it is unable to take that value and permanently store it. Then, when either the battery dies or I cut the power from the battery switch, the temporary value it had counted gets erases and then displays the previously stored hours. Sorry for being too technical, not sure what everyone's background is. What I just said is probably wrong. Im sure there have to be some redundancy systems in place to prevent tampering with the hour meter, but I cant find a single mention of a case where an odometer can't retain the hours it just counted.

 

[anthonymsaad]

Wow! So you still see the hour meter with the key out? Mine displays for about 30 seconds after key out, then the display shuts off.

I’m at 204 hours now, just for comparison.

Just for clarification, the starboard hour meter would go away after 30 seconds, like normal, while the port hour meter stays on indefinitely.

 

[10forty2]

I would think the hour meter would be similar to a digital odometer. I think they utilize an EEPROM type memory chip that gets burned with the hours as in your description. There may not be a mechanical relay, but a sold-state relay that won't release due to it continuing to receive power until you cut the battery switch off. Sounds elementary, but have you tried replacing the key switch to see if the contacts inside are bad and causing it to keep it powered on? If the ECM has been replaced that many times, it's doubtful that it's the problem. And I would also doubt that the wiring harness is the problem since there are no electronics in it, only connectors to run power/signals from one place to the other. Just thinking out loud here.....as you already know, something is keeping the power turned on...that usually means a switch of some description...whether mechanical or electronic/sold-state. A transistor acts as a switch when it receives the right voltage, channeling current to the right circuit, and as such it functions as a relay. If it is staying powered up, it will continue to pass the current.

 

[anthonymsaad]

[MENTION=91209]10forty2[/MENTION], Thank you so much for that! Completely forgot about the EEPROM type memory. I would love to replace the key switch, but the boat is 2hrs away at one of the few dealerships that services those boats still in my state. I will call them tomorrow and see if they would consider replacing the key switch. I defiantly have a feeling some stray power signal is causing these issues and holding a really open. Not sure if your familiar with the electronics on board, but do you happen to know where the alternator(s) are or what signal the ECM's utilize to actually count the hours? Like you were saying about a transistor being a switch, there could be some grounding problem that could cause the transistor to remain opened. But, as you further said, if the harness doesn't have any electronics, where would the underlying problematic switch be? In the ECM itself or the relay? But I also have a feeling that there is some compatibility issue with a new ECMs and the original wiring harnesses. When the decided to replace the ECM for the working engine, in conjunction with replacing the ECM for the issued one, then that initially working harness doesn't work anymore and wont power down.

Separately, I once had an issue for an adapter in my car for my phone. After the dealer replace my USB port, my adapter failed and my car wouldn't recognize my phone. When they got a new adapter, it worked find. The mechanic was confused and did some digging and testing and found out that the internal resistance of both adapters weren't the same, but slightly different. Although minute the difference was, it was enough for the adapter not to work. This wasn't a normal straight forward adapter with bare wires, it had an some complicated but discrete chip and computer in it (if you connected it to a laptop by itself, not phone, the laptop would actually "charge" the adapter). But because fo that, im thinking something like is occurring with the newer ECM's and that resulting voltage change being sent across the wiring harness is throwing some of the systems off and holding transistors, relays, or other switches open.

You seem very well versed on electronics, so I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on that. I plan on trying to come up with some list of possible causes and ways to test them and tell the service manager. They're already at a loss and so is the technical advisor at SeaDoo that is helping them. Least they could do is do some testing we can come up during the 3 month wait for the wiring harness to arrive.

Other than these issues, LOVE the boat!!

 

[10forty2]

I see we're not too far apart, geographically....I'm about 30 minutes north of you! Small world... Anywho, In thinking it through, you could be right about the wiring harness having a chip in it. Possibly an analog to digital convertor or other type chip, since the engine will be producing analog signals and the meter is digital. Having just purchased my used Sea Doo Speedster 200, I'm still learning the systems as well. I had to learn about the charging circuit a few weeks ago when the battery went dead and left me stranded in the water waiting for a tow. The engines have internal stator/rotors that end the charge through a rectifier/regulator that converts and regulates the voltage before going to the battery to keep it charged. I learned that the 30amp inline fuse in the charging circuit had taken some serious over-current at some point and melted inside the holder, causing the voltage to not be able ot reach the battery and hence not be able to charge it. There are two voltage regulators, one for each engine, mounted on the forward shelf of the engine bay....when you pop open the engine bay hood, look just under the front lip of the bay and that's where my two sealed regulators are located, one on each side, right behind and just above the back rest of the back seat but inside the engine bay. The previous owner had replaced one before I bought the boat from him, so apparently the charging circuit is problematic on these. I found the fuse as a result of other posts on forums about a green, 30amp fuse that melts. I replaced the fuse and holder and got charging voltage back to the battery, so I feel like I've fixed the problem for now, but have no idea what caused the over-current that melted the fuse.....literally MELTED the fuse, not blew it.

If I had a schematic of the boat's wiring, I might could help further. Can't seem to locate one. Another thought out loud...does the new ECM have a memory circuit that is powered by a button cell battery? Like the clock circuit on a computer motherboard? If so, the wiring harness incompatibility as you referenced, might just be getting enough voltage from the memory circuit to keep the meter display turned on.

 

[anthonymsaad]

[MENTION=91209]10forty2[/MENTION], Great!! I go to Jordan Lake. Hopefully I can run into you some time at the lake! I'm trying my best to learn more about the wiring, but having a hard time finding a shop manual for my boat. Especially with the my boat having a single throttle controlling both engines, and having issues like the one im having now. I'm so sorry to hear about the fuse melting, thats absolute terrible and terribly designed, especially a 30amp fuse. I will definitely have to take a look at that those new time I get a chance. I'm thinking somewhere between the stator/rotors and rectifier/regulator, is where im getting a problem.

I dont think the ECM would have a button battery. With the engine bay typically over 212ºF during operations, Id imagine a physical battery in the ECM would have issues and potentially leak and cause more problems, especially since you cant access them. I wouldn't see a need for the ECM to keep track of time that accurately and would use some other variation to keep sync, like a micro controller.

I have a question for you. In a hypothetical situation with a twin engine setup, and the boat was driven with only one engine. As the boat gets up to speed, I would expect that the non-running engine would have water forced through the jet intake, forcing the impeller to rotate and causing the stator/rotor to rate. In that case, as the stator rotates, it would be inducing a voltage/signal that the rectifier/regulator isnt expecting. Since the ECM isnt on, would that voltage produced be enough to damage an inductor or switch to keep a relay open?

 

[10forty2]

Cool! We are usually on Kerr, but have been told that Jordan is very nice! Might just venture there next Summer. As to your theory, If I remember my electronics classes from 30 years ago, I don't think the voltage generated by passively turning the alternator as you describe would be enough to excite the rectifier/regulator and cause it to pass any voltage. Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with the pump and cooling water intake system yet, but after being towed when the fuse melted and drained the battery, I was warned to make sure that I didn't take on any water in the engines that may have gotten forced into the exhaust. The manual actually addresses it as a drowned engine. Not sure it that scenario applies to running only one engine, and haven't really looked to see if the two engines share an exhaust or if they have separate systems. I know that when flushing with a garden hose, the sequence is start engines, turn on water, run up to around 3K RPMS for a couple of minutes max, shut off water, THEN shut off engines. Apparently without the engine running, the force from the hose can push water into the exhaust port of the engine and get water inside the engine. I guess the same applies when being towed or running one engine only.

 

[anthonymsaad]

Haha well, at the rate my boat is getting repaired, next summer is the soonest I could get out on the water. I do know that each engine is independent, each having their own everything and exhaust system. In the scenario with one engine running, without an engine on to produce exhaust pressure to keep the water out, I would believe that once the boat is on plane, water wouldn't have access to the exhaust outlet. This would be due to the exhaust outlet being above the hull line and on top of the jet pump. With that, on plane, water is just straight back and not getting up there and whatever water did build up when getting up to plane, would hopefully get drained out when on plane. When going from plane to stopping, hopefully the water pressure build up isnt too bad.

Out of curiosity, would you know what would exactly happen if the engine is drowned? Im sure the water would corrode stuff, but wanted to get an idea on what is happening, how to remedy the issue if noticed quickly.

In my manual, it talks about not operating the boat on one engine for the same reason. I'm sure it can get on to plane with one engine, but the driving characteristics would be off, as a result of an off centered point of thrust.

I did also call the boat dealer yesterday evening. When I told them about the fusses, key starter, chip in the harness, relays, and all that stuff. The engine wiring harness does not have any chip in it and all the relays aren't on the harness directly. They told me that they had replaced all the fuses and relays, checked the stator wiring and key assembly, with no luck. I had told them my radio head unit was acting funny, in that it becomes responsive quite often in that you cant press any buttons on it, even from the remote at the stern. And before taking it to the dealer, the screen couldn't load past the Jenson logo for the 30min I counted before cutting the power off and then back on. Looking at the radio issue separately, it looked like it was getting low voltage input. Enough to power it on and send music from the radio to the amplifier, but not enough to get button control or actually display anything. The dealer said that the radio issue seemed to be linked to the engine not powering down. I read the manual the voltage gauge on the dash should be reading 14V, but I was getting less then that. Not sure if when the engine isn't powering down, its puling high enough voltage that its causing the voltage potential to the radio to be insufficient. Good news though, the dealer was able to get my wiring harness by the beginning of next month!

 

[10forty2]

Fortunately, I don't know first-handed what happens when the engine gets drowned. First thing to look for is like any engine, milky oil. Pull the dipsticks and see what the oil looks like. If it looks like a chocolate milkshake, you got problems. If not, then you're probably okay.

Thinking again on your electrical gremlins.....do you have any aftermarket equipment installed? Is the radio a factory installed unit or something you or a former owner put in? There could be some bad wiring connections causing a backfeed that you can't trace. If you have aftermarket equipment, (depthfinder, radio, chargers, LED lighting, etc.) I would also disconnect it all to see if there is any relation to the problem. If, after disconnecting it all the problem goes away, then reconnect each, one at a time, and see if the gremlin returns. Reason I say that, I had a home theater amp several years ago that started acting weird....it would play the radio, cd, and television sound all at the same time. It was all electronic selectors...nothing mechanical....so I thought the control chip was fried. When I cracked open the case, I found a blown fuse in the power supply circuit....not where I would have looked for that kind of problem. Apparently in its blown state, it was allowing voltage to reach all the source inputs and switch them to the output at the same time. Replaced the fuse and everything went back to working properly.

 

[anthonymsaad]

Thank you for that! Glad to know you don't know first hand! Hopefully I wont either.

Regarding the electronics, the previous owner had all the speakers replaced with a WetSound system, including a 10in sub and amplifier. Because of that, an additional battery was installed, along with a battery tender installed in the boat. Additionally, he had a marine GPS installed and hard wired at the helm, but the unit itself could be removed, leaving the docking station on the helm. I didn't use it and was blocking the view of the speedometer so I figured out the best I could how he wired it, which was just for power and no data communication, and then cut the wire and installed a marine connector at both ends, in the event I wanted to use it later. Besides that, I am not aware of any other electrical modifications that were done, or saw anything. The radio head unit and accompanying remote are all stock Jensen equipment. With the GPS, since I pretty much disconnected it, I dont think that would interfere, but idk where he ran the ground.

Personally, with the radio head unit acting up and not letting me change the station, volume, or even power it on or off, I installed a BlueTooth module at the helm. Just to be clear, I only did this after I was having the engine issues. Took out one of those blank button covers and installed a flush mounted button, similar to the other buttons, and all of that is powered off the 12V socket that is located on the dash as well. Non of what I did is hard wired, like the power from the 12V socket is connected by alligator clips (I know not the best way to secure it, but couldnt get solder to stick to the metal on the socket). And the output for the BlueTooth goes to the Jensen radio head unit. I replaced the AUX input from the 3.5mm headset jack, in the glove compartment, that connects to the head unit with the bluetooth output, but that is just audio signal. I didn't get a chance to ground the BT module so I ended up using a noise reducing module in-between the BT module and head unit.

When trying to disconnect everything, I had tried to do that, and disconnected the power to amp, but still no luck. The dealer pretty much disconnected everything, and tested the voltage and signal at each individual step and still no luck. That is an interesting point about the state of the circuit with a blow fuse. I was thinking about something similar to that as well, where multiple sources are going through a point, when only one should. Not sure if there is a diode or some means of regulating direction of signals, but can imagine a spike in voltage or current in one of those signals blowing the diode or high enough to go against the diode. Another thing would be that I would imagine the signals going to and from an ECM would be relatively isolated from other electronics and would have a means to detect any issues, as that'd at least explain the $1100 price tag for each one. But the thing that confuses me that makes me think its not something aftermarket causing the issue is when they replaced the ECM on the bad engine and replaced the ECM on the good engine at the same time, thinking it was a communication issue between the 2 engines, and one wasn't talking properly. (This was because that although the port engine was clearly having issues, the dashboard would throw a check engine light for the starboard only). Back to replacing the ECM, when they swapped both at the same time, the good engine has issues. I'm starting to think you were right when you mentioned early it was some signal thats holding a relay opening. I know from previous projects dealing with relays, I had the relay switch get stuck open or closed randomly. Even after checking various parts of the circuits when it was both open and closed, nothing was out of order. It would work consistently and I would do nothing different, except trigger the relay to open and close, and the relay would get stuck. I ended up switching to a FET, but when I talked to a coworker, who dealt with electronics, he told me it was most likely some inductance kick back, that would somehow charge the relay to remain open or stay closed. But, for the good engine, once they replaced the brand new ECM with the older one, the engine was able to power down properly.

 

[anthonymsaad]

@ 10forty2,

I just came across this thread, on another forum, about someone swapping ECMs between an 04 and 05 models of SeaDoo's RXPs. They pointed out that they had to cut the resistors out of the wiring harness and solder on new resistors to do so. Starting to think if that is required to switch to a year new ECM, that that is part of my issue replacing a '12 ECM with a '17 ECM.

http://www.pwctoday.com/showthread.php?t=68483

That may fix the powering issue of the my working engine getting a '17 ECM and not shutting down with the '12 wiring harness, thereby requiring a compatible '17 wiring harness to work properly again. But, I doubt that will fix the ECM hour issues, unless they replace the wiring harness first, and reprogram a new ECM. I would love to hear your opinion.