Crankshaft, oil, and water

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scooper77515

freebie fixer
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How is the crank and connecting rods lubricated in the 787, and is there any way water could find it's way in there?

This ski has NOT been turned over, and has been rinsed and run dry after every use.

And for some reason, unknown at this time, the engine has seized. I have confirmed that it is not the jet portion of the ski that is seized but is engine.

Will know more as I get in to it. As long as this afternoon's beer supply lasts:reddevil:
 
That seadoo has a direction to be turned in in case it rolls over...if it is tipped in the opposite direction the water will run back in the exhaust system.
If the hose was running after the engine was shut down, would do it too...I think you know the proper technique to flush out the doo by now... The only other thing I can think of is a bad head gasket / o ring that allowed water to enter the cylinder from the leak. This could be a 6 beer project if you drink slow...Keep us posted...

Karl
 
Any suggestions on where to start looking? pull off cylinder heads starting from the top, yank off exhaust and start from the back, pull entire engine out and start from the bottom?

I have the jet and shaft out and am confirmed that it is locked up motor. But it feels more locked up as if something was jammed in it, not like something was rusting from the inside. Does that make sense?

I would guess that if it was rusty inside, after only 6 weeks, fresh water, I would be able to grab the shaft with vice grips and force it to move a little.

This feels more like a solid stick, not a binding piston or rusty crank freeze.

Good thing...the wear ring wasn't as bad as I thought, an bearings seem decent out back by the jet:cheers:
 
this is puzzeling

I can not think of any reason for this problem with all that you have said. only thing I could think of was that someone else took ski out without you knowing and maybe ran straight gas through it. that is if this is a 2 cycle with oil injection bypassed. but I think it has been to cold for anyone to be riding in texas. but I can be wrong. whith christmas break and all kids do crazy things. but I do not think this to be likely. please let us all know what it is. I sure hope it to be something simple like something jamed up aginst fly wheel or maybe you installed a bolt that was to long binding something up. just trying to be hopefull good luck
 
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Whooop!!!

I don't know what happened but it is turning now. I took the cylinder head off and tapped the starter and nothing happened, but I thought I saw a little movement, so I tapped it a couple more times and they started to free up. After doing this 4-5 times, they started spinning like normal.

Cylinder sleeves look great, still have some nice cross-hatching in them, etc. I see no scratches or anything.

I will go ahead and put the motor back together, but since I have the jet out, I will still rebuild the wear ring and bearings.

So, I HAVE to assume that I did not run it dry, and/or I got water in the crank case while flushing the motor and it started to seize up.

Any suggestions on what to do to minimize whatever damage has been done by this?

Is there oil in this engine, like in a car, that I can swap out?

I wonder if that trans fluid seeped down and loosened everything up?:confused:
 
Can you turn the engine over by the end of the shaft by the impeller? If not , I would pull the Flywheel cover and look inside...than go to the cylinder head and pull it. You might have to replace the "O" ring and I think your model has a head gasket too. You'll have to pull it if it is seized up anyway. Keep us posted.
 
I am new to pwc so I could be wrong. but I beleive that your 787 is probly oil injected it should have a small plastic tank to put 2 cycle oil in it. unless someone took out oil injection system. then you would mix oil with your gas. gas and oil pass through crankcase on 2 cycle engines and this lubes all parts. someone who knows more will be here soon to help out with your problem.
 
Upon closer inspection...

DISCLAIMER--I am not completely "up" on how these motors work, so I may be way off the mark...

The hose that attaches to the rear of the cylinder head right near where I hook the garden hose in. When the garden hose is on, it appears to run water over the top of the cylinder, then out the front hose. Hope I am correct so far.

There is a gasket between the cylinder head and the top plate, and then 2 o-rings around where the spark plugs go in. This is between the top and bottom plates of the head.

The o-rings were smashed, and there appears to be a poor seal between both plates of the head. I think water was getting past the seals and o-rings and getting into the top of the cylinder.

Does this sound feasible?

Anyway, Before I put this all back together, I will be replacing those gaskets and o-rings and hope that this fixes the problem.

It seems like a VERY SERIOUS problem that I happened to catch in time an hopefully corrected early enough to save the ski for another couple of seasons.
 
Sorry guys!!!

I didn't see that there were two responses before I wrote the last post...

Sounds like Karl was on to it, and yes, it is still oil injected.
 
With the heads off is the engine free to rotate over by hand? If not you will have to pull the cylinders and check the rings, and the crank for corrosion and the crank brgs....if it rotates over and isn't seized, I would still spray wd-40 on the piston domes and let it seep down the cylinder walls to lube everything and get some of that tranny fluid out of the engine, by wiping if off as much as you can. Rotate the engine over by hand... before you reassemble the engine. Use new 'O'rings and gaskets. after you fire it up replace the plugs as they will be fouled from the tranny fluid. keep us posted... I'll be out on the water for couple hours, leaving soon...but I will be back about 6:30pm..
 
Sorry Karl...

I have been out working on it and not reading your posts...

I got the head back on and started it up and ran water very low pressure so it wouldn't force it past the o-rings. It ran fine, for about 10 minutes. Smoked a bit at first as the trans-fluid burned off, but honestly, I think that thin fluid actually saved me. It got down like you said to use a thin lubricant, and freed up whatever was seized.

Anyway, ran fine, and I let the water off first to make sure it was all out of the system and then cut the gas until it dried out.

I think i am now ready to make my shopping list for the wear ring fix, and just need to add some head "gaskets" to it all.

Thanks for the support guys. It could have been MUCH worse, especially if I didn't run it all winter...
 
Water....

When I read your first post, I thought of the possibility of the moisture that remained in your crank and the ambient water temperature from a warm engine, that it started to rust and seize. This is not un-common and can happen fairly easily. The idea is to catch it early and pull your plugs, put a lubricant in like, WD or Marvel Mystery oil (which in my book is the best in this situation) to help free the parts that are starting to stick.
I don't see any real reason to go any further into the motor than you already have. The engine has oil in two areas, the balance shaft has about 1 ounce of SAE 30 in it and the rotary chamber is submerged by the 2-cycle oil from your tank. This is why we say to those going to premix, that you have to leave that tank and the lines going to the connections in the center of your casing intact.
Other than that, there is no more oil in your engine. It uses oil that is mixed with the fuel to lubricate the rotary plate at the intake all the way through the crank, pistons, and connecting rods.
The water enters the engine like you described, but it makes it's way across the top of the head, as you've seen the divider inside the plate, over to the exhaust, where it circles up and through the exhaust manifold, being preheated by the exhaust gases before entering the block. Going through the casing water jacket then back up through the top of the plate over your head and out again through the nipple in the head plate, next to the inlet. Your "tell-tale" is at the upper most point of the water flow to vent any remaining air and to let you know, water flow has been established.
Your spotting the "O" ring at your cylinder head plate could very well be your culprit, the white corrsion looking stuff must be cleaned throughly and dont' use a screwdriver, it may gouge the aluminum. Use wood or some other soft metal alloy. Something softer than aluminum. I use pieces of wood that I slice up with my table saw. But what also concerns me is, if your attaching your water hose to it and turning it on, you do have a bleed off on your pwc also, correct? You cannot apply the 60 psi or so coming from your water hose without having a bleed.
It may be a good idea if you haven't already done it, to go to my thread, "a look inside a 787". There are some detailed pictures over there that may give you some info that you can use.
And when you come back in from riding, it may not be such a bad idea to pop your plugs out and put a half ounce or so of 2-cycle oil in through the top of the heads, let it sit a few minutes, then roll the engine over with the plugs still out. Put a rag over the holes so as not to blow any excess oil out and over everthing.
I know its a long reply, but most in this forum have gotten use to my long explanations. Sometimes, I think a vivid description is the best way to make sure you see in your head, what is being discussed.
 
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Very good reply...

when you come back in from riding, it may not be such a bad idea to pop your plugs out and put a half ounce or so of 2-cycle oil in through the top of the heads

I told my dad what I thought was happening and his response was VERY similar...when we get done with it, squirt some Mystery Oil down the plug holes to lube the top of the cylinders.

My guess is that we put the water on too high when washing out the motor after the last run and "overflowed" it.

That is why this time, after I got it running, I just barely got the water flowing and it was still coming out the exhaust and the exit tube, so I know there was still enough.

Also, I will run the motor from now on AGAIN after I have let the water all out and make sure every last bit is out before putting it up.

Honestly, I am very pleased that this did not end up as bad as it could have...:D
 
Your right!....

Your exactly right. Had you not caught it when you did, it may have been either a lot harder to free up the parts, or you may have had to go further into the engine.......
Your dad is a smart man. He must be my age. Back in the day, that stuff was a God send. You could use it in your V-8's for sticking rings...and oh well, you get the picture.
I didn't look in the manual at your cooling system, but on my 787, when I hook it up to the water hose, there is a "T" in the line that allows the extra pressure to blow out, only leaving water. By turning it on just enough to see water flowing from your "tell-tale", then you have solved your problem. It's not hard, as you saw by the seals on the water jacket, to blow past them.
Great job and good you caught it on time. I hope you ran it for a while after getting it back together. When in the off season, you can never do any harm going out and putting a little lube and rolling the engine over just to protect it. And, just to put a little oil in and start it for a few seconds, doesn't require the water hose. Which btw, isnt' suppose to be turned on till you have the engine running. That way, the combustion pressure (100-140psi) is enough to over come the pressure of the water to keep it from entering the pistons........
Wow, another long post! That's what happens when you type over 65 wpm!...........sorry!
 
Scott, I just got back, and see that Louis got you under control...after you got it set to go. I got a little detained with supercharded25, down from Chicago. We were out playing tag with our Speedsters.
 
From bottom dead start, 4 college students in Nicks...2 adults in mine...both full of fuel, I got the jump...we were equal till about 50mph...then he walked away! I thought he would blow my doors off! Not the case, I was very surprised. His power and speed kicks in at close to 45-55.we were both surprised about how close they were! It did look cool 2 speedsters cranking around at about 50+ a blue and red one like brothers!

Either one of us had numbers on our boats...so no foul..lol
 
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