Challenger or Utopia? Which one should I buy? Or should I buy neither???

[Huntleybill]

We are looking for a boat. We want something light enough to pull behind my Ford Edge. We also want something that can fit in my garage during the summer months ( the boat no more that 18'). We also want to go fast on occasion. It seems that the Challenger or the Utopia fits all these needs.

I've never owned a Seadoo so I don't know how reliable they are but I was looking for advise as to which one I should get. Is one better than the other? Should I look for something else altogether? Does either one have mechanical issues I should avoid? Is there any year I should avoid due to problems?

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you
Bill

 

[gioakjoe]

I have a 2003 185 Utopia with 240 efi its about 18.5' trailer is about 22' x 8' unless you have a long garage you might be able to put it in at an angle in a 2 door garage.

it goes about 50mph on a very smooth day hold 8 people plenty of storage space. engine is pretty reliable and very easy to work on but its the same engine you will find on a Challenger. They are basically the same thing only challenger is a tad smaller, lil more sporty and less comfort.

 

[RFoster130]

It depends on the years really. The engines arent the same in both boats. The utopias are mostly mercury motors. First you need to set a budget, then its easier to pick what works best for you.

 

[gioakjoe]

True guess since it was in the merc section I thought he was going for 05 older boats with merc

 

[gioakjoe]

Utopia 185 + trailer is about 3000lb Idk what a edge can tow

 

[RFoster130]

True guess since it was in the merc section I thought he was going for 05 older boats with merc

Oops, i didnt see that. Then its just a matter of personal taste i guess. The 2001 to 2004 utopia 185's and challenger 1800's both have the same engines.

 

[Huntleybill]

True guess since it was in the merc section I thought he was going for 05 older boats with merc

I thought they all had Merc's???? Shows how much I know. I was looking for something in the 2002-2007 range. Hoping to spend around $10,000-$12,000.
Did I put this post in the wrong section???

 

[Huntleybill]

Oops, i didnt see that. Then its just a matter of personal taste i guess. The 2001 to 2004 utopia 185's and challenger 1800's both have the same engines.

So, are you saying that the engines/jets on either boat are good/reliable?

 

[RFoster130]

I thought they all had Merc's???? Shows how much I know. I was looking for something in the 2002-2007 range. Hoping to spend around $10,000-$12,000.
Did I put this post in the wrong section???

2001 to 2004 all have merc motors. Then in 2005 the challenger became the 180 and had the 4 stroke rotax. That was also the last year for the 18 ft utopia. I bet you could get a 2006+ challenger 180 in that range.

 

[RFoster130]

So, are you saying that the engines/jets on either boat are good/reliable?

Thats debatable. Most people here tend to shy away from the mercury powered boats. They can be tough to work on and very expensive to fix. If you are a real do it yourselfer, then i wouldnt hesitate. IF you are not as mechanically inclined , i would opt for the rotax stuff. Its also harder to find a dealer to work on the mercury powered boats.

 

[Huntleybill]

Darn, I was looking at a 2002 with a merc 200 optimax. The ad says that the motor was just rebuilt. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. Maybe I should look for a 2005 with the Rotax.

I am very mechanically inclined tho.

 

[Racereddie]

Darn, I was looking at a 2002 with a merc 200 optimax. The ad says that the motor was just rebuilt. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. Maybe I should look for a 2005 with the Rotax.

I am very mechanically inclined tho.

Here is a link with alot of info on the merc engines take a look

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?12636-Is-the-240-EFI-a-good-Motor&p=231359#post231359

2005 was the last year of the merc engines in the utopias. The Challenger X of that year had the merc and the Challenger 180 had the rotax.

Right around mid 2002 the merc engines went from the gear driven oil injection pump to the electric driven oil injection pump. Most of the horror stories you will hear about the Merc engines are those with the gear driven pumps.

There are tons of merc dealers that will work on the merc engine they just won't work on the Sea Doo part of the boat. The seadoo dealers have to be one of those that are still working on merc outboards for them to help you.

My feeling on my Utopia 205, which I keep in my two car garage, (the trailer neck is removable, not foldable) has room for 8 people. When we go out, myself, my wife and two kids (12&10) with all the beach/swimming gear-food the space on the boat seems to go away. I have never put 8 people on the boat. My boat info says that new it should run 47mph, I have run it at 47mph (GPS) speedo will say 52. I have also run it 70 miles non stop, had lunch, got gas and run 70 miles back without an issue.

I hope this helps

Eddie

 

[Huntleybill]

Thank you Eddie. That does help. I read the link. Maybe I will look for a Challenger/Utopia with the Rotax engine. Based on what I have read, it seems more reliable. Plus, the word "supercharged" sends a warm tingle up my spine

 

[Dr Honda]

Darn, I was looking at a 2002 with a merc 200 optimax. The ad says that the motor was just rebuilt. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. Maybe I should look for a 2005 with the Rotax.

I am very mechanically inclined tho.

Well... really it's not that hard to get them worked on. BUT... don't look at a seadoo dealer for general maintenance. Go to a regular boat shop, who services Merc.

 

[Huntleybill]

I havent heard any comments about the Rotax. Are they any better mechanically?

 

[Dr Honda]

I havent heard any comments about the Rotax. Are they any better mechanically?

Well...........

The I love the old 2-stroke Rotax engine. They are simple, reliable, and inexpensive to fix. The new 4-tec (4-stroke) Rotax engines are great, and make HUGE power. Also, they are smooth, and don't smoke since they are 4-strokes. BUT... when they fail... they are just as expensive to fix as the Merc.

The up side is that they are newer, so they generally have less time on them.... BUT... the down side is that they don't seem to live as long as some other engines. The little valve stems in the top-end are fragile, and if you don't keep your eye on them... they break, and a valve will drop into the engine. Also, if you get a supercharged engine... they need rebuilt every 100 hs, and if you get a 2008 or earlier... the SC washers can shatter, and take out the engine. SO... if you get a 2008 or earlier... get them changed as soon as you buy it.

 

[Huntleybill]

HOLY CRAP Dr. Honda...I don't want that either!!!!! A rebuild every 100 hours?????? Are you kidding? What is that going to cost????? Also are those SC washers expensive? Can I replace them? Geeeze this doesn't sound good at all!

 

[Dr Honda]

HOLY CRAP Dr. Honda...I don't want that either!!!!! A rebuild every 100 hours?????? Are you kidding? What is that going to cost????? Also are those SC washers expensive? Can I replace them? Geeeze this doesn't sound good at all!

I know.

I love Seadoo... and I own a BUNCH of "New" toys... but all my watercraft are older, and have been projects. WHY?..... because I have a hard time making a payment on a toy that is parked 6~7 months out of the year... and I don't trust a used 4-tec.

OK... so, my Islandia project. Yes... I have a TON of labor into it... and I have about $1600 into my new engine. BUT... Even with my new Poppy cover, and the HydroTurf... I'm only into it for about $8k. AND... the going price for a 2002 Islandia is $12k to $14k. So, it's been a good deal. A 4-tec ski that I would be willing to buy, and pay cash for is going to be about a 2005~2006. (around the $4k range) But... those engines are 7 years old, and will start to have issues. IF, that engine gives up... it won't be worth it to fix it, since a new engine will be approaching the value of the ski. (see what I'm getting at?)


Now... a supercharger rebuild will run you about $1k per engine if you take it to a dealer. If you can do the work yourself... a rebuild kit, with tool steel washers will cost you about $150 per S/C. AND... the special tool kit is about $100. So... it's reasonable if you do it yourself.

Right now, the new 4-stroke PWC engines are where the dirtbike industry was about 10 years ago. They developed small, EXTREMELY powerful, high reving 4-strokes. Back then, not much was known, and they would get run until the had BAD failures. Now... we know that it's critical to watch the valve clearance. It won't move until the stems stretch, or the seats wear. And, at that point... the head needs worked on. People with the new generation of PWC 4-stroke engines need to do the same thing. A simple check every 20 ~ 30 Hrs can save a very expensive rebuild.


Before I bought my project... I was debating on buying a newer Islandia with twin 4-tec's. But it was killing me to think about the payment for all the months that it wasn't going to get used. Also... I was looking at a 2006~2007 model. They had the twin 4-tec's without the superchargers. Yes... it's less power... but it's less expensive, and less maintenance. (it's still 310 hp total)

 

[Huntleybill]

Sounds to me like I would be better off with the Merc. Both engines seem to have issues but the Merc needs less maintenance. I dont mind doing maintenence on the boats, but I dont want to have to work on it all the time. I was hoping for a turn key, go and have fun all the time boat.

I really liked the jets but maybe they aren't the boats for me.

 

[RFoster130]

You say this is your first sea doo boat. Do you have to have a newer one? I would find a 98-99 speedster 160 or challenger 1800. Get use to them, mke sure it's something you like. You could always sell it and then try a newer one. You will get in much cheaper. They both have twin 800s. Which in my opinion is the most reliable rotax motor. I haven't had a single problem and haven't spent a dime on mechanical stuff other than maintenance. You could find a nice boat for under $7500.

 

[Huntleybill]

Thank you RFoster. I was told that the older the boat, the more "issues". That is why I was looking for something newer. Based on what I am reading here, seems the 'doo's are not that great of a boat engine wise.

 

[RFoster130]

They are fine if you know the history really. If people take care of them, they are reliable. Problem is they are toys, people tend to beat on them, do little maintenance and then they break. Forums bring out all the bad cases of people looking for help. You hear less from the people who take care of their stuff and it's still going strong. Im with doc, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used 2 stroke if it checks out good. But a newer 4 stroke scares me and I won't buy one until I can afford brand new. I bought my boat when it was 10 years old, and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. I think if you found one of the boats I suggested, you would be very happy. I'd take you out on mine if you were closer.

 

[cheappc]

Thank you RFoster. I was told that the older the boat, the more "issues". That is why I was looking for something newer. Based on what I am reading here, seems the 'doo's are not that great of a boat engine wise.

Huntleybill, the Rotax 787 (800) is probably bulletproof, from what I read here and what people have said are those engines are awesome. Now, really any used boat can give you a problem, but take a look at this website with the rotax engines replacement: www.shopsbt.com

I dont think they are bad prices at all, just in case you were worried (if you need to replace an engine). Also remember that seadoo has a strong community of followers just like us, and you can get a lot of help here just in case you have a problem. I was able to purchase my XP 800, and the wonderful people here showed me how to make it awesome under $100 dollars!

Remember any boat can give you a problem, I personally believe the Rotax engines are awesome. I personally believe it has to do with maintenance and lack thereof if you hear of any problems. If you go for a Mercury, well you have Dr. Honda here who has just taken the path of becoming a Mercury expert, so your in luck!

I love my Seadoo, and I can venture where few boats can go

 

[Huntleybill]

OK..let me show you an example: I found this ad: 2002 Sea Doo Utopia 185 with Mercury 200 Opti Max Jet drive, trailer, cover, fish locater. Motor was rebuilt this winter has only 45 min on it. The pictures show the boat and interior to be really nice.

I contacted the seller, and he tells me the boat is going back in the shop because "there is a glitch with the injection" He says once that is fixed, this will be a nice reliable boat. He also says the jet was checked and found to be in good shape. I dont know if this has the electronic injection or the mechanical ( I will ask). Also, I don't know what was "rebuilt".

Based on this info, would you consider this boat? What, if anything would you ask the seller? They are asking $8900

Oh..and CheapPC, Did they use the Rotax engines without the supercharger in the challenger/utopia in the 18' boats? I was also told if you buy the dual engines, expect dual problems @ twice the cost.... thoughts???

 

[RFoster130]

I wouldn't, but that's just me. What cooked the last engine, and was it fixed to prevent the same fate for this one? Why would someone spend thousands to rebuild the engine just to unload it?