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Bad day melted piston!!

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99seadoogtxltd

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Well guys, things were going great. I did say WERE. I was running wide open and all of a sudden loss of power and weird noises. Cut the ski off, tried crnaking it a few more times. It would start but run like shit. So I had my buddy tow me in. I removed spark plug first, to find the tip had been hit by something and caused it to have no gap. Removed the RAVE and noticed something had also nicked the edge of the RAVE. Decided to remove the head to take a gander and to my surprise, the piston was melted. It isnt seized up at all. I can turn it over. The other piston looks good. There was no scoring on the piston skirt. The spark plug appeared to be wet, but in fact it was BAKED. It was glossy oil but it wouldnt wipe off. It was like paint. melted.jpg
Where should I start?
 
Looks like you were running lean and got hot enough to cause pe-detonation and eventually melting the piston.

How do the cylinders look? Head? Odds are you will have to bore over, and you'd have to do both pistons, unless your bores are clean and in spec with just a little hone. How many hours on the ski?

Do you still have the grey lines? When was the last time the carbs were opened up?
 
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I was running wide open and all of a sudden loss of power

How long at WOT and which oil?

I typically run my 951 boat across the lake at about 50% throttle, 5300RPM, I figure the XPS-2 oil won't roast at that speed.

Everyone swears the 951 is junk and they don't last, I guess you just proved it. Never mind there might be an actual reason and no matter what anybody says! It melted a piston b/c it's a junky 951, and the casings blow up every time.

Some things that commonly kill 2 stroke engines:
Too much timing advance - detonation burns hole in piston
Running too lean - detonation or piston overheating, too much heat oil film breaks down(decomposed oil equals varnish, anyone?)
Crummy fuel - detonation, overheating piston oil film breaks down(decomposed oil equals varnish, anyone?)
Lack of oil - scoring, high friction
Over revving - They break
Too many hours - The rings, bearings or bores wear out
951 Only problem that ever kills them is - they're junk and can't/don't last and every time they blow up the casings.

An 1800hp top fuel v-drive pickle fork dragster will hydrolock if it misfires just once.
 
OK, I actually like the 951 even though I feel like it is tuned really high for such a small engine. That being said I didnt take the proper care this time like I should have. I actually was running tcw3 instead of apc-ti. That is TOTALLY my fault :/ My dealer was out of oil. BAD BAD BAD mistake. The ski has 80 hours. It was only turning 6800 RPMs. I have never over revved it. I was WOT for quite some time on the river that day. The good thing is, Nothing is seized up I guess. I will bore the cylinders and put oversized pistons and just make it a toy to tinker with. I will also add a oil injection block off plate and start premixing ALL gas. I did notice the RAVE was hard to remove also. So there was definitely some heat there. Should I do a cylinder exchange or have this one bored?
 
I had a gallon of oil in front of the ski, I thought it had leaked out of the jug, but there was a shit ton of oil in the bottom of the ski, now I know there is another issue elsewhere. Oil injection block off will fix that! This was before the piston fried
 
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I happen to think rather highly of the 951 as well, but some on this site keep repeating the 951 is junk and not to expect more than 200hrs, so having another one blow up is proof they're correct, LOL, the 951 only runs for 80hrs now, never mind the reality of what actually happened, obviously it's unworthy of investigating or documenting the detail, no failure analysis or post-mortem necessary, just throw it in the landfill and go get an RV motor to take it's place, bla, bla, bla, we already know what makes them blow up and it's never for any other reason other than one single reason, these motors won't run much past 200hrs in a light ski and maybe 212 hours in a heavy ski if you're really super lucky(luck has everything to do with 951 longevity), bla, bla, drool, drool.

In my experience, most motors blow up for a reason or comedy of reasons and 2 stroke engines (all 2 stroke engines) are sensitive animals. So BFD!

I'm interested in what your findings are though, especially if there's a puddle of oil in the crankcase like there should be and if the piston has oil all over it (Does everything seem well lubed as opposed to dry). Wish you were running XPS(I'm interested in how large of puddle of oil is found in the 951 crankcase without having to tear mine apart to find out. Oil type counts for this info, some oils don't stay in crankcase) but I bet you do too.
 
I feel 100% in my heart that there is a leak somewhere in the oil injection. There should have been no reason to have that much oil in the bottom of my ski. But this was actually the second time carrying it out. The actual piston itself had no oil on the top. But everything seems to be turn over freely. I actually drove it for a mile to get back to the trailer. I was pulled for a bout a mile and drove it a mile. (NOT GOOD I KNOW) But it was still running and everything was still turning freely. The front piston looks fine. 111.jpg222.jpg333.jpg
 
Sure, you're going to play with it, I got that, I do stuff like that all the time too.

I guess you're not saying it looks like an oil related failure, more like it was too lean and was detonating. I think it this was the case you might find some carbon on the bottom of the piston crown, overheating tends to cause that.

Interesting there's not much carbon on the piston dome.

And, since the piston smashed the plug, I dunno if it's a good idea just to install a new top end. Obviously, either the wrist bearing and/or the ros bearing may be lunched.

I hope you feel like sharing the stuff you find.
 
Well, with oil being all in the hull, Im believing it starved for oil on the back side. So if a wrist bearing or rod bearing came apart, would I have to replace the crank as well? I have been through the carbs several times as of late to get them right. And have done plug checks to make sure it wasnt too lean. Sometimes they actually looked rich. I really believe I have a leak in one of the oil lines. What does it sound like happened since there is hardly any carbon on the piston>?
 
Well, with oil being all in the hull, Im believing it starved for oil on the back side. So if a wrist bearing or rod bearing came apart, would I have to replace the crank as well? I have been through the carbs several times as of late to get them right. And have done plug checks to make sure it wasnt too lean. Sometimes they actually looked rich. I really believe I have a leak in one of the oil lines. What does it sound like happened since there is hardly any carbon on the piston>?

This is the second one with photos recently that let go and showed little carbon on the top of piston crown. I see that and think well, WTF!? I'm wondering right now if the carbon was burned off. Normally there should be some carbon in the center and bare aluminum around the edges where the piston runs cooler and normally carbon does get washed by fuel, carbon all over the crown right to the edges is typically considered a sign the piston is running a bit on the hot side as the heat tends to cause the fuel to burn close to the surface and leave soot(carbon), my pistons have some carbon on the centers with bare aluminum port shadows around the edges, especially shadows from the ports. An overheated piston seems like will begin to melt first near the exhaust ports.

I'm trying to compare photos to get an idea of how to read the 951 piston crowns, but it's not easy to find such photos. So, I've been trying to compare to photos that do exist, such as these:

http://www.smellofdeath.com/lloydy/piston_diag_guide.htm

As far as trusting the crank goes after seeing the piston impact the plug electrodes, I'm hesitant.

Doesn't stop me from trying though, do you know which jets are in the carbs, are they #70 pilots and #162.5 mains? My experience is the #70's seemed a bit too lean in mine but my gripe was over a flat mid throttle response. Fatting up on the pilots also makes the top a hair fatter as well.

Anything that might make the top end leaner such as running a higher flow airbox or less restrictive filters could get a few more RPM at the potential expense of roasting a piston, simply b/c less restriction would equate to a bit leaner ratio. The leaner you go with a 2 stroke, it tends to make more power to a point, till it hits that magic 14:1 ratio and it's gonna be real close to detonation, which when it does, if detonation does happen, and it will if it's lean enough or the fuel is crappy enough (Can you say Seafoam, LOL!), then 2 strokes are known for quickly roasting pistons, I've seen plenty of big ol' holes burned in 2 stroke Merc EFI outboard pistons, and Johnson 100psi v6 carb motors too, not just Rotax motors. It's common to see broken rods and shrapnel all over inside when they go pop, it gets ugly, the powerheads get yanked and off to the reman shop they go!

Could be you lost lube as well, I'm not trying to rule that out, I wanna keep an open mind, not an open/shut case. I guess lack of lube would show scoring on the skirts.
 
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Ok, this is the scariest most insane thing ever. This is going to sound as far fetched as anything you guys have probably ever heard. We started tearing down the engine today. Found a little sand inside the cylinder. Less than a half a teaspoon. Kept digging. Took the intakes off to inspect the oil injectors and guess what???? The rubber seal that seals the flame arrestors on was lodge in the reed stuffers..... ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? NOT ONE TINY BIT OF THIS IS A LIE? The rod is fine, the crank has absolutely no markings, everything seems to be ok. There was some chunks missing off the top off the top of the piston, and no markings on the side where any pieces slid down into crank. That seal was STUFFED inside the reed housing. I turned crank to top and check bearings. There is absolutely no up and down movement at all. Nothing is seized up. All wrist pins and clips are ok. This just blows the mind. There was still oil around the piston, just none on top. Im still going to buy a oil block off kit and install it. There was oil in the line, oil on the tip of injector, and no air in the lines... IM COMPLETELY BAFFLED! !!
 
[MENTION=65307]Sportster-2001-951C-Stock[/MENTION] the piston skirt actually looks very good compared to the link you provided. I can take detailed pics to provide more input. Much to my surprise the cylinder skirt didnt even have bad markings. I KNOW I will have to have them bored or honed bc of the heat, but there is no indication that this even happened other than the head and piston!!!!!
 
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Ok, this is the scariest most insane thing ever. This is going to sound as far fetched as anything you guys have probably ever heard. We started tearing down the engine today. Found a little sand inside the cylinder. Less than a half a teaspoon. Kept digging. Took the intakes off to inspect the oil injectors and guess what???? The rubber seal that seals the flame arrestors on was lodge in the reed stuffers..... ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? NOT ONE TINY BIT OF THIS IS A LIE? The rod is fine, the crank has absolutely no markings, everything seems to be ok. There was some chunks missing off the top off the top of the piston, and no markings on the side where any pieces slid down into crank. That seal was STUFFED inside the reed housing. I turned crank to top and check bearings. There is absolutely no up and down movement at all. Nothing is seized up. All wrist pins and clips are ok. This just blows the mind. There was still oil around the piston, just none on top. Im still going to buy a oil block off kit and install it. There was oil in the line, oil on the tip of injector, and no air in the lines... IM COMPLETELY BAFFLED! !!

That is a little bizarre. I guess if the reeds weren't working then the cylinder went lean, most likely. Was there a puddle of oil lying in the bottom of crankcase? Maybe 1/4 inch deep puddle? Piston skirts unscored as well, doesn't sound like inadequate oil unless you found some reason for the puddle under engine, a cat peed in there or what? :)

So, the piston collided with the plug electrode, so the wrist bosses messed up or cracked/broken? How does piston hit plug without breaking something?

To refit new pistons, I guess a machine shop should measure cylinders and decide what exactly needs to be done to obtain correct clearance, I'd let them decide, if it's not max bore already.

Keep the good info coming, thanks, it's interesting.
 
Well I believe a chunk off the piston came loose and was sitting on top and actually hit the plug. The got pulverized into dust and the piston was so hot it actually melted what was remaining? There was absolutely no chunks of metal and barely any chunks out piston, it just got really really hot. There is still some excess oil in the bottom of the ski that throws me off. I havent checked the bottom of the crankcase, with that being said, I am confused about that. Isnt oil supposed to be in crankcase to keep the crank lubed? Could you tell me how all that part works? I actually dicovered this is an sbt motor. The bottom of thepiston is a giveaway. The ski itself only has 80 hours, not sure how many this motor has. Interesting to say the least. One thing is for sure, it had really really good compression to suck that seal all the way through the carb!!!!
 
Okay, yeah that makes sense, pieces of something bouncing around in cylinder would definitely damage the plug and explains why the piston looks like it's got craters all over the crown and the carbon was probably beat off it.

Those pieces could've found their way out of the exhaust port, too, and are in the water box now. Pieces of piston or rave valve, both?
 
BARELY nicked the RAVE. But you can tell it was hit bc the carbon is knocked off of it right on the tip. So far, I seem lucky. Only time will tell. To be on the safe side, I am bypassing oil injection!
 
Isnt oil supposed to be in crankcase to keep the crank lubed? Could you tell me how all that part works

Yeah, there should be a puddle of oil lying in the bottom of crankcase under the rod bearings and the piston should be oily, not dry, as well. If yes, then it means a good amount of oil was there to lube all the bearings, you want to see oil down there and all over everything.

A lot of guys judge the size of the oil puddle to decide if they're running enough il in their premix, more oil isn't better, they want the right amount so it doesn't spooge upward at the wrong second and interfere with their race but they know there needs to be an optimum amount in there. These are the guys who tear down every 10 hours and replace pistons, too, competition riders.

"When you shut your engine down and let it sit, much of the oil drains down into the crankcase and forms a puddle in the bottom. The depth of this puddle is your indicator of whether you are running the correct amount of oil for your engine’s needs. Ideally, you want this puddle to be between 1/8 and 1/4 inch. If it’s less, you need more oil in your mix. If it’s more, you are running more oil than you need for your conditions."

http://motocrosshideout.com/2-stroke-dirt-bike-pre-mix-101/

As you probably know, the oil injection pump hardly flows any oil at all during idle, it's this existing oil down there that keeps things lubed.
 
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No hate for the gray 951 here.. . Sub'd to this thread for future replies :)

145 hours, 60 of those this season.. Still running strong..
 
love my 951s I don't think those 90 HP skis will keep up, but the market for a $2500 - $3,000 951 has just gone Poof.

When the engines go in another 10-12 minute (lol), maybe I'll get one. or maybe I'll find another 02 XP for $1,000 since no one will want them!

I'm just looking forward to when we get to debate oil types for a 4 stroke, and FINALLY see the end of premix threads :)

of course in another 10 years maybe I'll be on a 200 HP electric ski! right?!
 
of course in another 10 years maybe I'll be on a 200 HP electric ski! right?!

So you're looking forward to debating the merits of one solar cell over another?

I think seadoo hit a home run with a small lightweight four stroke ski, bet they can't make enough.

Yep, demand for the 951 junker-clunker just collapsed(maybe), more spare parts for us.
 
I'm still waiting for good pics of this melted piston, all I see is it looks like it got beat up real bad from something in the cylinder and it could've been nearly anything in there considering the O-Ring that was found in the reed cage.
 
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