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Another carb question...or is it?

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drjack

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There seems to be a multitude of topics relating to carb rebuilding, and testing/tweaking for pop pressure, etc. I have a 2001 Sportster model that I'm positive has never saw a wrench or screwdriver in its lifetime. I'm thinking of removing the carbs and rebuild during the winter months but I believe the engine was running OK last fall as it was.
My questions are: why do so many if us pull and rebuild these carburetors...is it always necessary, or are we just tinkering??
And, what signs should I be aware of that may indicate that it's time to rebuild?, Or is it similar to oil change intervals, such as "must or should" do every *** years or **** hours?
 
It's very dependent on how well the engine runs. The carbs in my Sportster were in need of help three years ago due to fuel starvation causing part throttle hesitation. I found the internal fuel filters and small passages inside the carbs were loaded with trash so it was time for a rebuild.

The factory installed grey fuel lines made by Tempo were partly to blame, the fuel tends to corrode the polymers of these fuel lines and as a result the decomposed polymers had lodged inside the carburetors causing them to clog. Back in those days of fitting and constructing boats, Tempo was one of the popular OEM brands for USCG-approved marine fuel lines, little did we know or suspect, they were junk.

So if your boat still runs strong and has no drivability issues this isn't a pressing matter but if it does become hard to start and especially if the engine hesitates, I recommend a carbs overhaul with new gaskets and metering needle/seat (size is 2.0) esp. b/c 2-stroke engine can be damaged quickly if it's run with poor fuel feeding issues.

This (clogged carbs) is one of the most common problems causing these engines to have poor performance, aside from the normal fouling of spark plugs most any 2-stroke often experiences under normal conditions. That is, if your engine seems to be experiencing sudden loss of performance, the 1st normal course of corrective action is replacing the spark plug(s) with the correct known-good type from your onboard spares kit before continuing to use your boat.

If any 2-stroke engine is run for more than a short period of time that isn't making the power it should, they can be damaged. The reason is, slight lack of fuel (causing misfiring, hesitation and/or lean surging) tends to overheat the aluminum pistons and they can actually melt from the high temperatures they may experience. Also, fuel carries the lubrication throughout the engine to distribute the lubricant onto the friction surfaces. If there is a lack of fuel (say for instance just one carb is clogged) causing a misfire, there is also a good chance that piston isn't being lubricated properly (it will overheat and gall the aluminum piston).

Bottom line, if your boat isn't running properly, taking care of the problem immediately (avoid running engine aside from testing, remember oil is distributed by the fuel and you can add oil through the carb intakes at any time for a quick shot of lube, if ever in doubt) can save your engine from being damaged. This is a major difference between a 4-stroke and a 2-stroke, the 2-stroke must have both it's fuel and oil in adequate quantity.
 
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I appreciate your descriptive response.
Now that you mention a fault with those grey fuel lines, that got my interest up as I thought these lines appeared swollen and questionably weak. I'm finding they are damp or wet on the outside, and it's definitely fuel. Thought it was from the flimsy hose clamps, so tightened them up a little. But the situation looks like a bad mix of weak lines and hardware.
What is a suggested replacement for these hoses?

Now that I'm on the hunt for OEM carb kits, I see many suppliers advertise OEM products until you read the fine print that this is a compatible replacement kit. The replacement kits look attractive in price, but am I wasting my time with them?
Our local Seadoo supplier and repair shop told me they don't sell original Mikuni kits because their more than twice the price and nobody wants to pay that amount of money. Makes me question what the dealer actually installs when they service somebody else's machine.
 
Does your boat actually have the gray tempo fuel line? I didn't think that made it to the boats.

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Yes! And just as I touched the grey line connecting the carb and the baffle tube, that plastic tube fitting broke at the pump.
Wonderful...not! Now I know where the wet fuel is coming from as it appears to have had a hairline crack before I touched it. This is the closest connector to the exhaust elbow. Judging by the brittleness of it, I would say it failed because of being so close to the exhaust.
Is this the return line? And if so, can I tap in a small barbed fitting to accept the 6mm grey line?
Or.....am I looking at a complete $200+ pump assembly?
 
My mistake...its not a pump as mentioned in my previous entry. I just realized that this baffle tube assembly is nothing more than a 4 port tube with a fuel level sensor. One vent, one return port, one tube at 75% down the fuel tank, and the forth one near the bottom of the tank.
I believe this is waaay to close to the exhaust manifold.
 
My boat only had the Gray lines for the pulse lines. I didn't think the tempo lines made the qualification for coast guard for boats. If u can't afford the 20 more per carb kit sell your boat. You are paying all the labor why not get good parts. Most aftermarket parts are fine but the rubbers are usually cheaper in aftermarket kits For the mikuni kits.

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Howie, all the grey lines actually say Tempo.
And you are right about spending more on something that you can save by DIY. Seems to be that I can't get what I want on this side of the border.
 
I am sure it's hard to get parts out of the U.S. do they tax you bad on bringing them in from the U.S.?

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That's why our local dealer mentioned that it's almost triple by the time we get the order in our hands. It's all about exchange, duty , international shipping, etc, etc, Our dealer doesn't even stock the OEM part.
I have a possible advantage to call a friend residing on the south side of the border, and cover his cost to ship.
My thoughts is the lack of stock on our side, and hopefully locating a supplier on the other side to trust they are selling actual OEM parts.-
 
Tonka also had genuine carb kits, he can be your one stop shop

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If the very thin plastic nipple is broken off the fuel baffle, you might be able to fit a piece of metal tubing down inside if you can get a good tight fit.

But while it's out, does the fuel gauge work? There's a small rectangular chip fuse I think it's 500ma, maybe 250ma, that's wave soldered onto the PCB that holds the megnetic reed switches to measure fuel level. May as well jumper this chip fuse with a solder bridge while the baffle is removed if it hasn't already been.

As far as carb kits go, the aftermarket gaskets are fine and the aftermarket needle and seat set I bought works fine as well although the seller covered over the Mikuni brand label with another label so the n/s look to be mikuni although the style isn't precisely the same as the originals I removed.

Keep your original metering springs, can't beat them even with genuine parts, just make sure you don't bend them.

For anyone wondering, the Tempo fuel lines were the OEM choice for many boat builders of the era, not just Seadoo. The reason is, they are USCG approved. Live and learn though, those lines were junk. Thanks, USCG bought and paid for by Tempo.

I reused my carbs metering diaphragms, they were still nearly soft as rose peddles. Warning on aftermarket (non-Mikuni OEM) diaphragms, most are of low quality and will have a negative effect on fuel metering. Either the rubber is too thick and/or the metal nub is the wrong length. Mikuni OEM stuff is right the first time.

As far as fuel lines go, I'm switching over to nylon next time around, nylon won't rot, ever, period. I don't do this with customer boats b/c nylon isn't USCG approved. Nylon fuel line has been used by auto manufacturers for a couple decades now and can be found at most autoparts stores. No clamps are necessary if it fits properly, if not clamps won't help.

Make sure to throughly clean the low speed circuit, read the carb rebuild sticky on how to do that. I dunno why some people think Seadoo didn't use Tempo fuel lines in boats, I just posted they did so perhaps they can't read?

Downloand the Mikuni Super BN carb owners manual, good info in there on how these carbs operate. The manual covers the smaller version of the SBN, not the SBN46i used on the 951, so there's some stuff slightly different.

The 951 carbs on your boat are the Mikuni SBN46i model, "i" meaning improved fuel pump so the gasket kits including fuel pump diaphragm must be for an "i", not an SBN non-"i"

You can effectively clean the internal thimble filters using carb cleaner aerosol (acetone in spray can) and compressed air. You'll need these to clean the carbs passages as well. A couple cans should be plenty.

I think if your fuel baffle is very close to the exhaust manifold it must not be pushed down into the tank completely? I don't recall mine being notably close except maybe while removing it.

The plastic nipples are delicate, on both the carbs and the baffle. I think as they age they become more brittle incrementally. I was able to twist the fuel lines to break the bond then twist and pull them off the nipples. A little oil might help.

You don't have to remove the exhaust manifold to get the carbs off but there should be silicone o-rings on the carb throats that seal into the airbox, you need to remove these o-rings to reach the allen screw mounting bolts after removing the control cables and losening two countersunk screws that mount the carb separating plate to make it easier as those countersunk screws can be really tight, I used a #2 or #3 phillips bit in an impact driver.

If you'll notice, many of the screws in these carbs have a little dot indented in the head of the screw, denoting they are JIS (Japanese Industrial) standard, not actually phillips. So if you decide not to buy the JIS standard screwdriver bit your phillips bit must be a very good clean hardened bit, not some worn out dime-store screwdriver made of soft metal.

Else the heads on those very tight factory torqued screws that have formed a galvanic bond in the aluminum threads can be damaged. So press hard and use a good quality bit. Some guys even resort to using an impact wrench but I don't like the idea myself on those tiny screws. Engine case screws yes, but these tiny screws seems kinda crazy to me, overkill.

Unsnap the black plastic turnbuckle off the ball post this normally connects between the two carbs, avoid turning the turnbuckle else synchronization will be disturbed.

Carburetor cleaner will burn chemical holes through your rubber pieces so don't make the mistake of hosing them down in this strong solvent. Disassemble the carb first, remove the rubber pieces.

Leaking fuel lines inside a bilge are a recipe for disaster, make certain there are no leaks.

The ID of the small fuel lines is actually metric but 1/4" is slightly smaller than the metric size and will work fine (untested using 1/4" nylon, might fit well)
The large fuel lines are 5/16 ID

Oil the screw threads during assembly, or use antiseize compound, to avoid galling the threads. You could be surprised on how easily the threads might gall, it does happen and i'ts a PITA when it does.

Take your time and be paitent, it's gonna take s little time for you to find your way around in the bilge. Just remember, skis are really tightly packaged in the bilge.
 
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Only reason I asked about the tempo is my boat doesn't have them. I'm the original owner and I didn't change them. They also 5/16 not 1/4 iirc. Like Howie, just the pulse line is tempo.

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Awesome information, guys.
Presently,the fuel gauge is working. I was pondering the idea to extract the baffle tube, but I'm getting gun-shy since the first tube broke so easily. But then again, if this unit is that brittle , it maybe best to find out now instead of half way across a lake with gas leaking everywhere in the engine compartment.
The grey lines are also questionable, so I like the idea of the nylon hose as a replacement. The Tempo lines have 6.4mm etched on the outside. Never heard of 6.4 line before, that's a new one on me. Just a little more than 1/4".

Stand by. I'll mess with the baffle thing first, then get Christmas out of way before tackling the carbs. Hey Santa...I know what I want for Christmas now!
 
The fuel line in the jetboats are different, no need to replace that. Its 5/16.

As far as the baffle, measure the length from the bottom of the rubber to the bottom and let me know the length. Some were special in boats, some were not. Your boat used alot of jetski parts.

You might as well get it out, I would personally not try to replace it. Explosions are no fun.
 
The fuel line in the jetboats are different, no need to replace that. Its 5/16.

As far as the baffle, measure the length from the bottom of the rubber to the bottom and let me know the length. Some were special in boats, some were not. Your boat used alot of jetski parts.

You might as well get it out, I would personally not try to replace it. Explosions are no fun.

This post is 100%, we simply cannot afford to have fuel leaks in our bilge so triple leak check everything 100% and BE CERTAIN there are no leaks. Anything questionable should be replaced or checked often to confirm leaks aren't occurring.

I want to point out as far as nylon fuel line goes, USCG approval requires fuel lines and components must possess some amount of heat resistance in case of fire. Be aware that nylon by itself as used in some high pressure fuel injection systems on automobiles doesn't meet this requirement.

One of the problems, and perhaps a reason for why Seadoo chose Tempo A1 USGC fuel line in the 1/4" ID for the 951 might be due to it's comparative smaller outer diameter as compared to other neoprene USCG-approved types. That rear PTO carb barbed inlet fitting is rather a tight space so it can be a challenge to fit a standard thick wall marine tubing onto the barb with enough space for a hose clamp.

Here's a link to various USCG approved fuel line types offered by Seastar (Teleflex), the 1/4"ID series 368 sports an outer diameter of 0.54", for comparison with the OEM Tempo outer diameter:
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/hose/fuel/

You might have to look around a bit to locate something that fits nicely, often it's on the shelf at the autoparts store but some of their grades aren't much if any better than the original Tempo stuff was for resisting the ethanol in fuels. The A1 stuff, especially if has the nylon inner barrier, isn't too bad.

Honestly, it's been a long time since I replaced the lines on my 951 so I don't recall what I used exactly except that it came from the trunk of my car, lol, sorry. But I've been considering using something with a nylon inner layer specifically, for the next time they're off the engine.

Just make sure you have no leaks!
 
The fuel line in the jetboats are different, no need to replace that. Its 5/16.

As far as the baffle, measure the length from the bottom of the rubber to the bottom and let me know the length. Some were special in boats, some were not. Your boat used alot of jetski parts.

You might as well get it out, I would personally not try to replace it. Explosions are no fun.

The 951 jetboat (and ski?) use both 5/16 and 1/4 ID fuel line. The 5/16 is black neoprene USCG rpproved I believe by memory, and the 1/4" stuff is grey Tempo, which corrodes internally as we well know.

So I agree, he probably doesn't have to replace the 5/16" stuff but he'll probably need about 6 feet of 1/4" rather thin wall (due to it's a tight space at the rear PTO carb) fuel line for the connection from the front carb to rear carb and the fuel return back to the tank assuming he wants to eliminate the Tempo stuff.. Standard A1 thick wall Marine grade stuff I have here on the wall for example, might be too heavy (thick walled) for a good fit.

Maybe the stuff they have at the local autoparts store (Canadian Tire?) will fit well is it's not too thick wall.
 
Only reason I asked about the tempo is my boat doesn't have them. I'm the original owner and I didn't change them. They also 5/16 not 1/4 iirc. Like Howie, just the pulse line is tempo.

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Gotcha. All the 951's I've seen use both those sizes and the 1/4" stuff is always Tempo. Fuel pump pulse line is also 1/4" Tempo but that one isn't a problem most of the time it's in good shape still and of course it's location isn't likely to contaminate the carbs internally..
 
On my dual 717 boat only like 2 feet of tempo lines for the pulse. My oem lines from seadoo are like super thick. Walls are like 3/8". They are actually hard to cut. Takes some effort to break those lines. USCG lines are not cheap per foot.

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Sportster,
You mentioned in an earlier post, " make sure to throughly clean the low speed circuit, read the carb rebuild sticky on how to do that. "
Is this write up on the premium side of the board?
 
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