99 Challenger 1800 (twin 787)

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

Hi all, I am a proud new owner of a 99 Seadoo Challenger 1800 w/ twin 787's.

Still yet to get it wet as it needed some work.

Firstly engine 1 does not run but is in ok condition, in that it turns over smoothly with no nasty noise, it will fire with some start ya bastard.

So starting with the carbs I have rebuild them both and still it is not getting fuel (plugs are dry)

I now suspect that the fault is with the external fuel pump as it does not seam to pump fuel, I have replaced the pulse line and confirmed that it has pump/suction.

This is where my questions are..

1 can I replace the fuel pumps with a generic unit (electric or a different pulse pump) as I am in Australia std units are hard to get. If so what pressure am I looking for? Is there a different std unit I can use instead?

2 if the pulse line from the motor goes to the external pump, how to the carbie internal pumps get a pulse ? Or how do they work with out a pulse line ?

Appreciate your advice guys!!

 

[racerxxx]

Congrats on the boat, I'm working on one right now for a guy. It's unfortunate that the OEM fuel pumps you can't get rebuild kits for so your locked into buying new ones. [MENTION=58005]Pale Rider[/MENTION] (a user here) swapped out with some off the shelf higher volume Mikuni units, but... I think they are dual out put so you need to block off one of the ports or perhaps just plumb each carb with it's own feed. Now for the one I'm working on (I prefer it to be like it was built) we ordered OEM pumps just today for $72 a pop. As far as the carbs needing a pulse line, nope. Just the fuel pump needs the pulse and the pump will push the fuel to the carbs. I'm pretty sure Pale used the DF62-702 fuel pumps(one for each engine).

http://www.mikuni.com/fs-carburetor.html

 

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

Thanks racerxxx,

This sounds like a good option if I can source them locally, I'll try this weekend and see how I go.

 

[jhjesse]

Thanks racerxxx,

This sounds like a good option if I can source them locally, I'll try this weekend and see how I go.

If you decide to go with the high volume Mikuni pumps some replumbing will be involved. The mount will also have to be redrilled to accomadate the pump.
The way I am doing my 99 is running a seperate line to each carb from the pump and removing the line between the mag carb and pto carb. Then making a plug to fit the mag carb's aft facing port that feeds the pto carb.
To plug the aft facing port I simply cut the hose between the carbs and installed a plug. Good luck

 

[racerxxx]

If you decide to go with the high volume Mikuni pumps some replumbing will be involved. The mount will also have to be redrilled to accomadate the pump.
The way I am doing my 99 is running a seperate line to each carb from the pump and removing the line between the mag carb and pto carb. Then making a plug to fit the mag carb's aft facing port that feeds the pto carb.
To plug the aft facing port I simply cut the hose between the carbs and installed a plug. Good luck

This is why we opted to stay all factory, all you I need is one cap to pop and spew gas all over and one spark and this guy and family are going sky high, not something I'm comfortable with. There is nothing wrong with doing what your doing, just not for me. We weighed out the extra $40 total cost for both pumps was worth the insurance, not to mention they drop right in. I'd burn that $40 savings in drilling, tapping, plugging, and re-routing the fuel lines for the guy. I have never had one issue with the OEM pumps delivering fuel to my Speedster in 14 years--yes they are still the same pump that it left the factory with.

 

[jhjesse]

How easily were your pumps to get?
I was told the stock pumps would have to be back ordered, so I opted for the aftermarket. If you know of a good source that has them in stock please share.

Stirlo - You mentioned that stock pumps were hard to get in Aussie Land. Can you order from the USA companies?

 

[racerxxx]

We ordered them Yesterday and I'll have them on Tuesday or Wednesday. They had 5 in stock yesterday(email confirming), so now they have 3. SHSPowersports.com, call and talk to Jen, tell her Dan with the yellow and gray XP sent you and have her sign you up for the buyers program(free) and you should get discounted pricing. We paid $72.68 each, she's VERY reasonable on the shipping ask here what she can do for you. Let me put it this way, I can order on a Friday and have it the following Thursday, they're in Michigan and I'm in PA so that is roughly 2-3 day shipping, and that was for a crank and a wad load of other parts for my XP.

part#270500388

 

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

QUOTE=jhjesse;323266]How easily were your pumps to get?
I was told the stock pumps would have to be back ordered, so I opted for the aftermarket. If you know of a good source that has them in stock please share.

Stirlo - You mentioned that stock pumps were hard to get in Aussie Land. Can you order from the USA companies?[/QUOTE]

Hi guys thanks for the comments, please keep them comming.

I agree with the comment that keeping it std is the best policy and while we can ship to Australia, if I could find them, we end up paying their price again in shipping. Which is why I am interested in options.

Since these engines don't reply on the pulse rather a steady supply of fuel from the std external pulse pumps, has anybody investigated running an electric pump to provide fuel to both engines ? Cars have been done this way for years!

I was thinking of blocking the return line and installing an electric pump after the big inline filter and before the carbs. Once fuel pressure is up to the carbies the pump will stop till the carbies draw fuel when running.

I am interested in your thoughts on this..

If I can find some std pumps I am looking at $250-$300 and 3-4 weeks hence my intrigue....

 

[racerxxx]

I emailed Jen and asked if she could ship to Australia. If she can it might save you some cash money! You'd just have to take care of the ordering part on their website and wrap it up via email with her.

 

[Guest_User]

This is why we opted to stay all factory, all you I need is one cap to pop and spew gas all over and one spark and this guy and family are going sky high, not something I'm comfortable with. There is nothing wrong with doing what your doing, just not for me. We weighed out the extra $40 total cost for both pumps was worth the insurance, not to mention they drop right in. I'd burn that $40 savings in drilling, tapping, plugging, and re-routing the fuel lines for the guy. I have never had one issue with the OEM pumps delivering fuel to my Speedster in 14 years--yes they are still the same pump that it left the factory with.

well I can say that I filled the unused ports with epoxy, let them cure than capped with a zip for good measure. BUT not relying on just the cap and clamps... mine are filled, no chance for a leak...
If new OEM`s could be sourced cool. I had an in with a dealer for Mikuni and got mine at a good price. I`m a fabricator, so drilling and tapping was no big deal...lol...

 

[howie099]

It does suck they don't make rebuild kits for these pumps. Either get and OEM or make an after market one work. Some people have taken them apart and cleaned them out to get them working if all the rubbers are still good. The main issue was the old pulse line was still the crappy grey line that just gummed up the pumps. Its with a try to clean them since they don't work anyway.

 

[racerxxx]

well I can say that I filled the unused ports with epoxy, let them cure than capped with a zip for good measure. BUT not relying on just the cap and clamps... mine are filled, no chance for a leak...
If new OEM`s could be sourced cool. I had an in with a dealer for Mikuni and got mine at a good price. I`m a fabricator, so drilling and tapping was no big deal...lol...

The fab is not an issue, I have a mill, tig, mig, plasma cutter and the laundry list goes on and on--at my house, and a full machine shop at my disposal 24/7. It's cost VS. time for me. Pumps were in stock at SHSpowersports.com, until they are not available anymore I'll stick with them. Like I said, my Speedster is still pumping with the ones it left the factory with. Arctic Cat Sno pro's have an almost identical pump, again, no kit available. Yamaha did the same with my BIL's outboard, need to buy the entire pump.

Here's the arctic cat pump.

http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/performance-racing/281421-03-440-sno-pro-fuel-pump-rebuild-kit.html

 

[Guest_User]

The fab is not an issue, I have a mill, tig, mig, plasma cutter and the laundry list goes on and on--at my house, and a full machine shop at my disposal 24/7. It's cost VS. time for me. Pumps were in stock at SHSpowersports.com, until they are not available anymore I'll stick with them. Like I said, my Speedster is still pumping with the ones it left the factory with. Arctic Cat Sno pro's have an almost identical pump, again, no kit available. Yamaha did the same with my BIL's outboard, need to buy the entire pump.

Here's the arctic cat pump.

http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/performance-racing/281421-03-440-sno-pro-fuel-pump-rebuild-kit.html

wow, my pump does not look like that...

not arguing at all... time I had... remember I started with special circumstances with the PO screwing up the return line as well...

 

[howie099]

The main body of that Artic Cat mikuni pump is a lot like the OEM Seadoo ones. Minus the extra lines of course. You never know someone in the aftermarket might make the gasket kit when you can't get them anymore. SBT sells the Accelerator pump diaphram since seadoo stopped making them.

 

[Guest_User]

The main body of that Artic Cat mikuni pump is a lot like the OEM Seadoo ones. Minus the extra lines of course. You never know someone in the aftermarket might make the gasket kit when you can't get them anymore. SBT sells the Accelerator pump diaphram since seadoo stopped making them.

PPG can also source the accel pump diaphragms but they are 30$ each...:facepalm:

 

[howie099]

I got mine from OSDParts for like $15. I think they all come from the same supplier. How many of them could their be in the aftermarket?

 

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

The issue is the shipping for me, $30 is not alot but when you x2 and add $40-50 shipping it starts to hurt.

I didn't know you could get the pump diaphrams, my pumps although corroded on the outside were very clean on the inside despite the std grey lines still installed. Mine would not work as the diaphrams were really stiff and the pulse was not enough to activate the pump..

I have chosen an alternate solution for my Challenger. I have installed an electric pump and blocked the pulse lines on the engines. It is a 5-6psi pump but the return lines are still functional. The pump which is an automotive inline fuel pump designed for carbie feed motors and is connected to the arming circuit so runs when ever the seadoo key is installed and runs till the key is removed. The pump is rated to 150 ltrs / hr flow rate so will easily supply enough fuel to BOTH engines.

I started both engines for the first time a couple of days ago and could only get 4,000 rpm out of them both... but soon realised it was becuase it was in neutral... I will water test it this weekend and keep you posted...

 

[jhjesse]

Post some pics of your pump setup.

 

[Guest_User]

The issue is the shipping for me, $30 is not alot but when you x2 and add $40-50 shipping it starts to hurt.

I didn't know you could get the pump diaphrams, my pumps although corroded on the outside were very clean on the inside despite the std grey lines still installed. Mine would not work as the diaphrams were really stiff and the pulse was not enough to activate the pump..

I have chosen an alternate solution for my Challenger. I have installed an electric pump and blocked the pulse lines on the engines. It is a 5-6psi pump but the return lines are still functional. The pump which is an automotive inline fuel pump designed for carbie feed motors and is connected to the arming circuit so runs when ever the seadoo key is installed and runs till the key is removed. The pump is rated to 150 ltrs / hr flow rate so will easily supply enough fuel to BOTH engines.

I started both engines for the first time a couple of days ago and could only get 4,000 rpm out of them both... but soon realised it was becuase it was in neutral... I will water test it this weekend and keep you posted...

there is very low fuel pressure used with these Mikuni carbs. I believe the output is 2-3 psi. you will ned a regulator to crank the electric pump down... I advice against the electric pump. There is no fail-safe. if a line were to work loose from excessive pressure or for another reason fuel will be spraying all over...
also in reading your post, I think your confused, the Accelerator pump diaphragms are available, not the fuel pump diaphragms... forgive me if I misread...

does SBT ship to AU ?

 

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

Yeah I believe they do but like the others they charge heaps..

It's more like 4-6 psi rated, but with the return lines intact it can't get that high.

Here is a pic of the pump set up.

And yeah I was thinking you were talking about the fuel pumps

 

[racerxxx]

Hey, sorry I forgot to post this back up but right now SHS can't ship to Australia.

I'm with PR on the electric pump. I had one on a truck a number of years ago and I left the key on and filled the cylinders with gas and hydro-locked the engine on gas. Well stupid me pulled the plugs and turned the engine over, yep she caught on fire but I had my extinguisher with in arms reach. I just got ahead of myself and forgot to disconnect the coil. Right after that I installed a pressure switch that ran inline with the oil pressure so that the pump would only work while cranking and would shut off with less than 20 psi of oil pressure, not doable on a 2 stroke. Moral of the story, I'd ditch the electric pump.

 

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

Hey guys the carbs don't leak either outside or inside under fuel line pressure I have checked this.

My concern if I have one is only that it may not have enough fuel pressure / supply at wot. But only because I haven't checked this yet. I have only run it out of the water.

The pump has an internal regulator and will shut off at 4-6 psi.

It's really no different to the std external pumps which do the same thing only less pressure at lower revs, but the carbies set how much fuel they draw not the fuel line pressure. At worst they will be a tad richer which as I understand it is desirable on these engines.

 

[Stirlo_challenger1800]

Oh and as the return lines are open it doesn't build enough pressure to stop the pump so it's under the psi rating.