I have a (actually a pair) 97 SPX that is currently always 'hot' on the yellow/red wire that connects to the starter solenoid. I disconnected the start/stop switch and it appeared to test fine with Ohm Meter (no load until button is pressed), my other ski tested the same. Even with the switch disconnected the wire is hot.
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97 SPX Starter Circuit Issue
- Thread starter lmcbroom
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Check the continuity of the Safety Switch Lanyard. It is normally "open". The color codes of the 2 wires are Black and Black/Yellow. These feed back into the electrical module box. The Start /Stop switch is normally "open". The color codes of the 2 wires are Black, that goes direct to ground, (to stop the engine), and the Yellow/Red that goes to the electrical module box. Check the continuity of this switch too.
This is hot as the switch is the connecting link...What is your question? This is how it is suppose to be.
What is the problem you are experiencing?
Karl
This is hot as the switch is the connecting link...What is your question? This is how it is suppose to be.
What is the problem you are experiencing?
Karl
OK, so I'm up here in Seattle and finaly drug out my skis last week. With battery full charged, when i installed it (hooked up ground terminal) the starter engaged, interesting I thought. Disconnected the connection to the solenoid (yellow/red & black) and finished installing the battery. When I connect the solenoid, same thing starter engages. Noted that I was getting 11-12 volts at the yellow/red post of the plug that connects to the solenoid.
Let me check the wire diagram. It should only feed power when the Start switch is pushed. The switch is normally "open". If it is "open" than power shouldn't feed through it. I'll post back in a few minutes. With some ideas.
Karl
Karl
The Yellow/Red from the switch supplies a ground- to the module which allows power to supply(Yellow/Red) to the solenoid. This allows it to start. Use a multi meter to do the following tests.
Do this, first disconnect the battery. I would check the wires for continuity from the start switch to the Module. The switch is normally open, until you push it than it completes the circuit. Be sure it is working correctly. Next check continuity from the Module, Yellow/Red to the solenoid. If it checks out ok. Disconnect the stater wire from the solenoid. Connect the battery back up. Check for 12 volts at the Yellow/Red wire at the solenoid with the start/stop switch unpluged. If it is constant than the module is bad because it has a constant ground inside allowing it to supply power to the solenoid. Let me know how you make out.
Karl
Do this, first disconnect the battery. I would check the wires for continuity from the start switch to the Module. The switch is normally open, until you push it than it completes the circuit. Be sure it is working correctly. Next check continuity from the Module, Yellow/Red to the solenoid. If it checks out ok. Disconnect the stater wire from the solenoid. Connect the battery back up. Check for 12 volts at the Yellow/Red wire at the solenoid with the start/stop switch unpluged. If it is constant than the module is bad because it has a constant ground inside allowing it to supply power to the solenoid. Let me know how you make out.
Karl
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I'll check that out shortly...sorry for the pun.
A couple of things I did not let you know, and may be or relevance:
---When i hook up the solenoid connection, the starter spins but does not engage
---The machine will start when I hook up the solenoid connector IF I press the start/stop switch
---With the solenoid connector unplugged, I get a reading of ~10 volts to the yellow/red pin, when I hit the start/stop switch the voltage drops to ~.4 volts
A couple of things I did not let you know, and may be or relevance:
---When i hook up the solenoid connection, the starter spins but does not engage
---The machine will start when I hook up the solenoid connector IF I press the start/stop switch
---With the solenoid connector unplugged, I get a reading of ~10 volts to the yellow/red pin, when I hit the start/stop switch the voltage drops to ~.4 volts
robin savell lloyd
Active Member
Some solinoids are ground activated. meaning that there will be 2 small terminals on solinoid one will be hot all the time and the other will apply a ground to complete the circut when the start buton is pushed. It has been many years sence I have worked with solnoids if I am not mistaken some will be wired in diferent ways I believe there are 3 differnt ways that I have seen. good luck Robin :cheers:
robin savell lloyd
Active Member
This is a post by Derek it may also apply to you. Not the hurt starter part. yeah. like they said. the solenoid has welded the big washer to the 2 contacts. beat on it and it may free up, but it will just stick again. you may have already hurt your starter and/or flywheel running it with starter cranking constantly. good luck I believe what he is saying here is it can be a bad solinoid. :cheers:
robin savell lloyd
Active Member
Great post buy Dennis. I believe this was a 93 xp. For what it's worth,
The yellow/red wire should have a constant 12volts D.C.. When the start button is pushed it grounds the black/white wire(attached to the other small post on the solenoid) and activates the solenoid. The stop switch, tether switch and start switch are all wired in series. A ground wire leaves the ground post in the electrical box, goes through the three switches and ends up as the black/white wire at the solenoid. The wiring must be correct and all three switches working properly or the solenoid will not get grounded and therefore not activate.
Kinda sounds like somebody had a problem and started messing with the wiring, by-passing switches, etc. Dennis :cheers:
The yellow/red wire should have a constant 12volts D.C.. When the start button is pushed it grounds the black/white wire(attached to the other small post on the solenoid) and activates the solenoid. The stop switch, tether switch and start switch are all wired in series. A ground wire leaves the ground post in the electrical box, goes through the three switches and ends up as the black/white wire at the solenoid. The wiring must be correct and all three switches working properly or the solenoid will not get grounded and therefore not activate.
Kinda sounds like somebody had a problem and started messing with the wiring, by-passing switches, etc. Dennis :cheers:
i dunno. his solenoid seems to work. when they stick shut (circuit closed) the starter will spin whenever the 2 big wires are connected. it is like jumping the solenoid and having the wire stick across the top. ok; you have hot at small sol wire all the time. this is a dess bike. take the other small wire off sol. or find where it disconnects. put an ohmmeter from that wire to ground. should read open. then hit start button. should read 0 ohms. this is IF it is sposed to be hot all time with an active ground. if low side wire reads ground all the time, it is probly an active hot. i will check diagrams a little later.
robin savell lloyd
Active Member
You are right Derek it can not be that the washers welded together as when he removes the small wire that does comfirm it. :agree:
robin savell lloyd
Active Member
I thought you said that they were different in last post I am confused.
one was hot and the other was not part of it.
That quote refers to the test I did at the start/stop switch connector. So for grins I bought a new solenoid yesterday, noted that the 'old' one appeared to be a 3rd party manufacturer. Now the machine is still hot at the solenoid yellow/red connector (~10 volts), but when I plug it in, the starter does not start spinning. The start/stop switch does not engage the starter. However if I jump the posts on the solenoid it starts just fine, the start/stop switch shuts it off just fine.
If it starts with the lanyard connected, and it stops via the switch, does that indicate that the DSS key is functional? Trying to rule that out.
Still curious why one machine is hot at yellow/red at solenoid connector and the other is not.
If it starts with the lanyard connected, and it stops via the switch, does that indicate that the DSS key is functional? Trying to rule that out.
Still curious why one machine is hot at yellow/red at solenoid connector and the other is not.
Mpem ?
I was going to stay out of this one since it appears, KustomKarl has given you all the test procedures that you could possibly use to find the answer.
I think your mpem is bad. Not bad in the sense that it won't allow the engine a start, but in it's circuits that direct its functions to work properly with the electrical system. If you can jump the solenoid to the battery and the ski runs, then the mpem signal circuit to the solenoid from the start/stop (double acting switch) and the anti theft circuit (DESS) is fused. The other side of the start/stop switch is routed to ground your ignition system to shut down the engine.
Unless someone has gone in and bypassed the electrical switches in some manner, looking to go around the anti-theft security, that yellow/ red connector wire should not have any voltage. The only time that it should have voltage is when you put your lanyard on, you get the two beeps (to signal proper mpem function for that ski) and then, when you push the start button, the signal from there, runs through the mpem, then out to the yellow/red wire for power to start and run the ski. When the DESS cap is removed, that power should go off.
I'm not you, but if I had to identical skis, one works well, the other does not, I'd take the DESS post and mpem from the two skis, disconnect batteries first. Then put the post and mpem from the one in question on the ski that you know to be good. Then connect the battery. Test the yellow/red wire. If it's hot on that ski too, then you know it's the mpem. You can now, put the mpem and DESS post (known to be working correctly) in that ski you had the problem with, and if it's not hot at the solenoid, works correctly, then you'll back up your findings on the mpem in question.
I was going to stay out of this one since it appears, KustomKarl has given you all the test procedures that you could possibly use to find the answer.
I think your mpem is bad. Not bad in the sense that it won't allow the engine a start, but in it's circuits that direct its functions to work properly with the electrical system. If you can jump the solenoid to the battery and the ski runs, then the mpem signal circuit to the solenoid from the start/stop (double acting switch) and the anti theft circuit (DESS) is fused. The other side of the start/stop switch is routed to ground your ignition system to shut down the engine.
Unless someone has gone in and bypassed the electrical switches in some manner, looking to go around the anti-theft security, that yellow/ red connector wire should not have any voltage. The only time that it should have voltage is when you put your lanyard on, you get the two beeps (to signal proper mpem function for that ski) and then, when you push the start button, the signal from there, runs through the mpem, then out to the yellow/red wire for power to start and run the ski. When the DESS cap is removed, that power should go off.
I'm not you, but if I had to identical skis, one works well, the other does not, I'd take the DESS post and mpem from the two skis, disconnect batteries first. Then put the post and mpem from the one in question on the ski that you know to be good. Then connect the battery. Test the yellow/red wire. If it's hot on that ski too, then you know it's the mpem. You can now, put the mpem and DESS post (known to be working correctly) in that ski you had the problem with, and if it's not hot at the solenoid, works correctly, then you'll back up your findings on the mpem in question.
I was actually thinking along the same lines (switching the MPEM), and was going ask what all I would need to 'swap'. Do I unplug all the connectors and bring the whole gray box over? Seems like there are 2 magical components inside the gray box. By DSS post, do you mean what the lanyard connects to?
Yea, you could just unplug the whole thing and transfer it over. The DESS post is interchangable, but the lanyard cap is what is programed to the MPEM.
Karl
Karl
The post is not coded...just the DESS Lanyard cap is programed to the MPEM.
Karl
Karl
robin savell lloyd
Active Member
It sure is nice to have extra parts. I am sure you will get it running.
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Gone Fishing
New Member
Not to highjack your thread but I have almost the same conditions, I did what Kustomkarl suggested and with the start/stop switch disconnected, I have 12 volts at the starter relay coil. Everything I have looked at so far seems to suggest mpem module. I bought this 98 spx for my son a week ago so I don't have much of a clue yet. If anybody has any input, please respond to this thread:
http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?t=4271
lmcbroom, if I figure this out before you, I'll let you know. Please do the same. I sure wish I had 2 units to verify it before buying the new MPEM.
http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?t=4271
lmcbroom, if I figure this out before you, I'll let you know. Please do the same. I sure wish I had 2 units to verify it before buying the new MPEM.
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Bingo. I moved the entire gray box from one machine to the other, and the 'good' one acted stupid, the 'bad' one acted fine.
My manual states that the '97 SPX has a MAAP unit, is that the same as a MPEM?
Part number from the bottom of the big mystery box, (there is a smaller one in there also), inside of the gray box is:
Serie A97962630061-K
278-000-981
Is this a Dealer only part? Please say no.
My manual states that the '97 SPX has a MAAP unit, is that the same as a MPEM?
Part number from the bottom of the big mystery box, (there is a smaller one in there also), inside of the gray box is:
Serie A97962630061-K
278-000-981
Is this a Dealer only part? Please say no.
Gone Fishing
New Member
I’m a guy with very little experience as I only purchased my 98 SPX a week ago for my son. I have a similar problem as you but I went to the dealer and they told me the MPEM was $635, my jaw dropped and I went home to do some more troubleshooting. I went online to see the alternatives. The best price I could find on an aftermarket unit was $343. This P/N is 278-001-255 which replaces the number you gave (278-000-981 and also 278-001-202). The best OEM was $445. Still a very high price so I’m still trying to make sure that is what I need. I’m watching your thread and I have a feeling we both may have the same part needed. Good luck!
Yes it is a steep price, particularly since the only thing I'm getting is a 'start' switch by replacing it. Kicked around the idea of putting in a heavy duty, water-proof bush button switch that jumps the 2 poles of the Solenoid, but decided against it...someday the machine will be for sale.
Anybody out there know where to get one of these cheaper and/or a used unit?
Thanks for everybody's help with this.
Anybody out there know where to get one of these cheaper and/or a used unit?
Thanks for everybody's help with this.
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