717 engine not starting first thing in the day

[PatinMD]

I've a 2002 GTI, 717 engine. Still has oil injection. The ski will not start on the first attempt in the day, unless it gets a spritz of starting fluid at the spark arrestor. After that it starts right up and starts right up for the rest of the day, even 10 hours later.
The compression is good, the gas and oil system pressure test good. The plugs are good. The gas is fresh, The battery is good. The plugs get electric. The plugs are wet, after the initial try to start.
On the initial start attempt, the starter will spin the engine then retract, which means, I believe, the engine is spinning at the right rpm. During the initial start attempt, the engine does not sputter or spurt or attempt to start in any way.
What am I missing?
Thanks

 

[mikidymac]

First stop using starting fluid. It isn't good for 2-strokes.

Is your idle set correctly?
Are you using the choke?

 

[PatinMD]

The idle seems correct but I haven't had it in the water to get a good reading. The carb is almost new. It doesn't have a whole season of use on it. It was running at the correct idle when the engine was starting fine and nothing has been done to it.
Yes, I am using the choke for the first two tries at starting, then not on the third and fourth. I've also tried it without using the choke on the first start attempt, but it didn't make a difference.
It seems that if it's the idle setting that is keeping it from starting, that would hold true 6 hours later too. Your thoughts?

 

[POPPS]

Are the choke plates closing fully?,,,May be time to service the carbs.

 

[PatinMD]

Are the choke plates closing fully?,,,May be time to service the carbs.

The choke plate is closing fully. The carb was new at the beginning of last season with literally a couple hours of use. If it was a carb with bad settings or dirty or whatever, why would it not allow the engine to start first time of the day but work fine the rest of the day?

 

[mikidymac]

It might be bleeding back to the tank when it sits and has trouble pulling fuel back to the carb.

It is a new carb but are you sure alll the jets, springs and screws are set to the correct spec for your ski?

 

[PatinMD]

It might be bleeding back to the tank when it sits and has trouble pulling fuel back to the carb.

It is a new carb but are you sure alll the jets, springs and screws are set to the correct spec for your ski?

I pressure tested the fuel system and it held for as long as I left the test gauge hooked up. 5 psi and didn't move, no matter the position of the fuel switch.
The plugs are wet and smell of gasoline after attempting to start, so I believe it's getting fuel thru the carb.
I went over the carb completely when installing it. I can't remember all that went into that process but it was cumbersome. A lot easier than the rebuild I attempted earlier though.
I pressure tested the fuel system and it held for as long as I left the test gauge hooked up.

 

[PatinMD]

Yesterday I tried starting it and failed. Used a bit of fluid and it started up. I waited 14 hours to try again, just choke and hit start and it started right up again.
Yet this morning 11 hours after the last start, it would not start.
When it wouldn't start, I opened up the airbox, moved the spark arrestor and put some gasoline into the carb, closed it up and tried to start. Fail. Then I tried with carb cleaner, Fail. Then I tried again with starting fluid and again fail. Well, then the starting solenoid froze in the closed position and I had to disengage the battery to shut off the starter.
Now I'm in a holding pattern until the new starting solenoid arrives.

 

[awdunn]

Well, I will take a guess... which is,
The needle or needle seat o-ring have a slow leak. If the fuel system is under any pressure [or maybe even if not], the needle / seat would slowly leak fuel into the jet chamber, which would then gravity flow throught the jets into the carb throat, and pool in the intake manifold /rotary valve /crankcase, and lead to a rich / flooding situation upon starting. The slow leak would be insufficient to create the flooded situation in say, 10 hours, but may be sufficient overnight or longer. That would explain the unsuccessful first starts, the both successful and unsuccessful starts with starter fluid, the wet plugs, and the subsequent successul starts in the same day. Could a popoff test [stop pressure below popoff and hold, wait an hour and look], would reveal such a slow leak? not sure about that. // just a guess. /ad

 

[PatinMD]

Well, I will take a guess... which is,
The needle or needle seat o-ring have a slow leak. If the fuel system is under any pressure [or maybe even if not], the needle / seat would slowly leak fuel into the jet chamber, which would then gravity flow throught the jets into the carb throat, and pool in the intake manifold /rotary valve /crankcase, and lead to a rich / flooding situation upon starting. The slow leak would be insufficient to create the flooded situation in say, 10 hours, but may be sufficient overnight or longer. That would explain the unsuccessful first starts, the both successful and unsuccessful starts with starter fluid, the wet plugs, and the subsequent successul starts in the same day. Could a popoff test [stop pressure below popoff and hold, wait an hour and look], would reveal such a slow leak? not sure about that. // just a guess. /ad

You pose an interesting case. When I pressure tested the fuel system it was at 5 psi. I forget what the popoff pressure was set to. I'll be looking back thru info to get that number.
Update - while I didn't find the notes for my carb, I did see the chart for popoff pressures and the lowest was 14psi. So the test of the fuel system at 5psi was below the popoff and it held steady for a couple of hours. Thanks

 

[Poormanracing]

Check the wear on the rotary valve.if the valve or manifold will cause what is happening.the valve is not sealing the intake port to pull fuel they the transfer ports

 

[PatinMD]

That was a lesson in KISS. I received the new starter solenoid, ignition coil, and spark plugs. Tuesday morning, took the old solenoid and coil off. On a whim I tested the resistance on the solenoid. The old one was no longer shorted out. Just for s&g I put it back on the ski. The old ignition coil tested ok again, and again just for s&g I put it back on the ski. But, I refreshed the plug ends of the spark plug wires and made sure to forcefully push the wires into the caps as they were screwed on. Put the new spark plugs in just because the old ones had been used for a season. (I had tried new plugs a few days earlier and it didn't help the situation.)
Hit the starter and it fired right up. Tried again a few hours later, it started right up.
Here we are on Wednesday morning, and again, it started right up. For those taking the time to read thru the posts, the problem was it would never start the first time every day, without a spritz of starting fluid.
Apparently it was getting electric thru the spark plug wires (shown by the tester) but loosing too much power thru the caps resulting in a weak spark. At least that's what I'm guessing.
Thanks to all who provided insight.