2000 Gtx Di

[StarfireMarDiv]

Ok everyone, got an issue here that I do not see. I just finished searching the forum.

Model is a 2000 GTX DI Millennium edition.

Picked it up this morning from the dealer, so I had never had this out on the water before.

Ok, Got it fired on the first touch of the starter button. Idled off the trailer and over to the beach, and before I can get there, 30 yards or so, it starts loosing rpm in 100 ish chunks. so, idling along at around 1350, then drops to 1200, runs for about 5 seconds, then drops to 1100, another 5 seconds, then drops to 950, about 5 seconds, then dies......... attempted restart..... have to REALLY hold starter down for 15 or more seconds and hold a bit of throttle on to get it to re-start.
Now, let it sit for 20 minutes, then it fires at a touch again, but still has the same issue holding idle....

Ok. get it out on water, ROCKETS to full power, and blasts around like, well, you all have them, you know what kind of smile they put on your face.
So, it runs just fine at full throttle, runs fine at anything over 3500rpm, but anything lower, and it "coughs". not a steady cough, or even a rough running cough, just a random every few seconds, it will seam like it is choking, then cough, and then run fine for another few seconds, then choke and cough again....

It went like this for 3 hours or so. with both the idle issue and the cough.
Sometimes it would start on the first touch of the switch, sometimes it was a fight as you drifted down the river begging and pleading for it to run.

also note, 289 or so hours on the meter. No idea if this is the original engine or not.

I am asking if anyone has seen this before, and what did they find as the solution.

 

[seadoolover]

choking?

Does your model have a choke? If so it sounds like it is "ON". Check and let us know.

 

[kustomkarl]

Has it been serviced lately...It could be the RAVE(Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust)valves are in need of service.The RAVE, (Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust) valves are located above the exhaust valve. There are 2 of them per engine. They are round with a red adjustment screw in the middle. It has a clip that holds it together. How they work is that they open the exhaust port larger as the engine rpm's increase. When the rpm's drop down so do the RAVE valves. They work on the principle of the pressure of the exhaust system. Rpm's increase, pressure increases and the valve opens, rpm's drop pressure drops, Valve closes. They should be de-carbonized annual. To disassemble the rave valves, remove the spring clip on top, remove the black cover. There is a spring under the cover. Remove the piston by turning it with a metric socket. On the bottom of the piston is the rubber "Bellows" be careful with the small retaining spring that hold the bellows on the piston. Remove the 2 allen screws that hold the base on the cylinder. Remove the base and gasket. The long valve won't fall in the cylinder just pull it out. There is an o ring under the base, on the shaft of the guillotine valve. Be careful to see how it came apart as it has to go back together that same way again. On the base, notice the notch that it is facing down. Clean all the carbon off the guillotine valve. I use carb cleaner and 400 grit paper. Check the bellows for any small pin holes. If so replace it. If not, reassemble it on the clean guillotine valve, and install it back on the engine the same way it came apart. The guillotine valve only fits one way. The one closest to the exhaust pipe will come off differently then the other one. You will have to remove the allen screws and turn the base so it clears the exhaust pipe. I would do one at a time in case you forget how it goes back together again. This way you can look at the other one and copy it. Do both engines 2 per engine. Take your time and if you have questions give us a shout. We'll be here to help you out.
If the RAVE valves are dirty it will not rev up correctly and could be causing your problem.



Karl

 

[StarfireMarDiv]

I would have assumed the dealer would have gone over it before they sold it....... But you all know what happens when you assume things.
It will rev up just fine, the issues are all at low RPM. and no throttle, or slight throttle. Hit the gas, and it throttles up just fine.

There is no choke that I can find.

Ok, was tossed up between figuring it out myself, and taking it to the dealer and letting them figure it out. I decided since I was taking our other ski to the dealer for a new key, I might as well let them figure it out.

They ran it, and could not find anything wrong with it at all....

So, back to the water. Put in the water, and fired on the first touch of the starter... idled away from the dock, and then shut off in mid river to try and retrieve a friend who had fell off and could not get back on the 3D. total run time, about 45 seconds, before I shut her off. Ok. now spent about 5 minutes trying to help friend back on other ski. Failed on that by the way, decide to run back and get tow rope, but low and behold, I was dead in the water. Plug in key, no beeps...... dash lights up, starter turns over engine, but nothing happens.
No matter how long I tried playing with it, same deal. Key on, no beeps, starter will spin the motor over strongly, but will not start.
Floated 2 miles downriver trying to figure it out, no luck. Swapped skis, tried the 3D for the first time ever, LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!
rode it back to my truck, and then started the treck downriver to figure out where to retrieve the 2000 GTX from.
By the way, I do NOT recomend trying to hand carry a 3 seat ski from a beach, up a hill to it's trailer....... Even with 4 people, it sucks.
Ok.
Hours have passed, try starting it again, now on the trailer.
Still the same. key on, no beeps, starter spins, will not fire.

So, in the morning i am headed to the dealer again.
But, I was wondering if you all had any ideas that I could toss their way when I get there.

Thank you.

 

[seadoolover]

Bad connection lanyard/post.

If you are getting NO beeps the ski will not start.. you can crank till the cows come home and it will not fire... you need 2 short beeps for a spark...sounds like your lanyard { key } isn't communicating with your MPEM through your lanyard post... here's a simple thing to try... use soap and water only and give both your lanyard key and your post a good scrub. If this doesn't work my guess is you need a new key or key post. By the way... if you use your new key from your 3d on your gtx.. do you get one long beep? The ski won't start BUT i'm trying to determine whether the post on your gtx is bad by getting it to recognize the key from your 3d ski ... if you can make sense of that! Also try using the key from your gtx on your 3d ski.. you should also get one long beep... trying to determine whether the post on the 3d recognises your gtx lanyard key... :ack:

 

[Serbmarine]

If the engine will crank your key and DESS post are ok. If the key or post were bad you would not be able to crank. Sounds like an issue with the ignition system, or maybe as simple as fouled spark plugs.

 

[StarfireMarDiv]

Ok, I tried switching keys between the two skis, and the 3D reacted just as it is suppossed to, but the GTX will not let out any noise with either key.

Tried washing the key, no improvment.

Spark plugs are not fouled, they are clean, that was one of the first things I checked.

So that leaves something with the ignition.

Darn, drat, and other words I won't print.
I am going to take it to the dealer today, and let them figure out the rest.
Heck, I had the ski less than 48 hours before this happened, I figure they can put some effort into it.

So, just for my info then. If I am not getting any beeps, when the key is put in place, but the engine will spin, then would the computer "know" what is going wrong, hence why no beeps? Or are we going to be chasing more than one issue here?

 

[seadoolover]

Not firing...

Take out your plugs and see if they are fouled or not... hook up leads to plugs and see if they are producing a spark there... if there is no spark try the same with a new set of plugs... let us know how you went here.

 

[kustomkarl]

If the gtx doesn't have any beeps, and turns over than the Beeper is bad. If the DESS lanyard is communicating to the MPEM, then the GTX will turn over. I think the beeper is bad and your just not hearing it,( replacement is cheaper at Radio Shack than dealer). I think the issue is the gtx isn't firing while it is spinning the starting. The gtx could be sending a code( but you can't hear it..no beeper) Then the dealer could check the code for the problem...1) repair the beeper..2)listen for the code to correct the problem 3) Have the dealer check the mpem for trouble codes and repair.

Karl

 

[StarfireMarDiv]

ok.
Official line from the dealer.
When I had my friend climb on the back on the GTX, we most likely sunk the rear so bad water backwashed up the exhaust line and into the engine. That sounds possible, we are both "hefty" people. They say there was water in the engine. I had removed the spark plugs, but had not spun the engine with them removed, and had not noticed water on the plugs.......

They also said there were no codes thrown by the computer.

They tell me they could not find any reason the ski was not beeping.... They fired it up in front of me today, and it did beep as it should.......
I am stuck at a point here. The ski works now, at least out of water, they say they can not find anything wrong with it now that the water has been removed from the engine.

So.
Does this sound right? I have tons of exp with boat motors, but very little with 2 stroke motors or ski motors.
Is it possible the computer "knew" there was water in the engine, and as such would not set off the beeper?

 

[seadoolover]

water in engine

What is the max rating weight for your ski? I haven't heard of water running in the exhaust and back into the engine just because the exhaust outlet was underwater.. ok so to eliminate this problem just ride it around by yourself for awhile and if i picks up water again you know it's getting in some other way. When towing the ski above 15mph water can run into the exhaust because of the force of the water produced by the tow.. thus filling your engine. i'm not saying your dealer is incorrect but i haven't heard of this happening.. as for the beeps u can get a cheap beeper from an electronic store to eliminate the old beeper itermittently working or not .. and "no" the computer doesn't stop the engine from firing because it "knows" there is water in the engine. It throws codes which relate to specific problems which causes the computer to do certain things.. eg "limp mode" if the engine gets too hot it won't let the engine go over a certain rev limit about 3500 rpm.. so you can still get to shore safely. There are several codes for several things but none that i know of to determine water in the engine.

 

[StarfireMarDiv]

max rating is 535lbs I think.
The more I deal with this shop, the more I think they really do not know what they are doing.
The ski is supposed to have been fixed, I picked it up last night. Today I decided to take it out for a test spin before the busy weekend.
Ok.
Backed into the water, and the ski fired 1st try. Note, no beep, it just fired and ran, so I think whoever said the beeper is busted is most likely right.
Ok. I sat on the trailer for a few minutes, then idled over to the beach. I shut down by the beach, went and got the other ski, came back, and......................Nothing................
once more the engine will spin, but not start.
I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with the dealer tech, he has no clue...........

Ok. Now total of about 45 minutes have past.
Put the other ski back on the trailer, walk this one over, and put it on the trailer.
Pull both out of the water.
A few minutes go by, looking for place to throw key while unloading storage compartments, so i just stick it on the post........ It let out a very clear double beep.........
?!?!??!?!?!?
ummmm ok.
hit the starter.
started instantly.....
WTF??????
Ok. so, shut down, restart several times, no issues.
alright. Back to the water.
Trailer in the water, key in place, very clear double beep, hard start.....
It seamed to struggle to fire. Not the starter mind you, that spun just fine, but it coughed and sputtered to life. This is with the ski IN WATER now. decided to run it for a few, took it off the trailer and UP river at idle.... then hit the gas. Took off like a shot, no hesitation or coughing at all....
made about 3 passes at full throttle, back to the trailer on the 4th, as I wanted to try shutting down and restarting, and had no intention of doing it in the middle of the river. Ok, ski running on the trailer. shut down.
take key off.... wait, replace key, two beeps, but no start. starter spinning engine, but no start.
Back to top of ramp again.
Tried to start out of water, same deal, beeps, no start.
now I have time to kill, so I waited 30 minutes, and then try again.
Fired right up, on the trailer.
back in water and repeat same as above.
Twice.
So, it will run fin on the trailer, but not in the water.
Brought it home, hooked to hose, same deal, it will run just fine...... But not IN water.

What the heck could be making it run fine on the trailer, or on the hose, but not in water?
Note, dealer said he ran it on and off for 15 minutes or so on a hose, and could not get it to have any issues, or throw any codes at all.
Note, Issues ONLY occur with ski IN water.
Note, In water, it starts hard, coughing and sputtering.

Ok, timeline here,
I picked up the ski's Sautrday afternoon. AS in I bought them from the dealer Saturday. Saturday afternoon, I ran this ski on the river. It started, but coughed at low RPM and did not want to idle. Other than that, it ran fine.
I rolled the ski Sunday morning, it ran fine sunday afternoon, other than not wanting to idle, Yes, I had pulled the plugs to see if it had taken in water. Took ski to dealer for idle issue, dealer tech ran ski monday morning, said nothing was wrong, but when it would not start for me monday afternoon, I took it back Tuesday morning. THEN I get told that there is water in the cylinders from when I rolled it......... I point out that was sunday, and the tech said the ski was fine monday, Then they claim I "sank" the ski's rear too far when my friend climbed on... Not sure If i can believe that. Now I am having the above issue.

At this point I am starting to think I bought something they knew had issues, and they do not want to deal with it. Keep in mind they are NOT doing the diagnostic work for free, they are making me pay for it.......
This is a SeaDoo dealer/shop, not a pot lot.

Sorry for writing a book here, but this is starting to REALLY piss me off.
If I treated one of my boat repair customers this way, I would get sued.

 

[seadoolover]

Painfully frustrating...

I had a problem with my 2001 gtx ltd. I bought the ski and then never got to ride it for long because it kept playing up IN THE WATER ONLY! I took it to the local seadoo tech who .. after several MONTHS of holding onto the ski... couldn't find the problem. He would try something.. call me up.... get me to run it down to the local boat ramp. test it out... then bring it back and let him know how it went. I did this no less than 20 times in that 3 month period. Everytime the same problem occured... I won't go into it here but if you find the posting for " FLAT SPOT " by SEADOOLOVER ...you can read all about it there. INCREDIBLY PAINFULLY FRUSTRATING!! :ack:I rang another dealer... he was 1000 miles away!! He said he had a testing tank in the shop in which he did his mechanical work on the ski's whilst in the water... this sounded exactly like what i needed... as the problem occured only in the water. So i took a couple of days and drove the 1000 miles and dropped the ski off. A couple of HOURS later the tech rang me and said he had found the problem. He said it would have been almost impossible to diagnose without ski being tested in the water { tank }. I AGREED TOTALLY RECALLING THE PREVIOUS 3 MONTHS OR SO OF A NIGHTMARE. Anyway the ski ran great after that...:hurray: i didn't have to spend any money on parts .. only labour... as no parts were needed. It was a simple hose blockage to the RAVE valves which weren't allowing them to open up at higher revvs causing a huge " FLAT SPOT " in my rpm range!!! OF ALL THE THINGS!!! Anyhow.. my point is that you seem willing to spend the money { like me } and the time to get this ski fixed properly. My advice to you is to do what i did.. find a dealer with a " TEST TANK " and take the ski there. It may take a bit of travelling but it will be surely worth it when you're riding that ski with a smile from ear to ear!

Hope this helps with your pain!
:cheers:

 

[StarfireMarDiv]

ok.
New shop found the problems in about 1 hour....
several issues.
Starts with front cylinder being 80 psi compression, rear at 100 psi. That's why it won't start with a load on the impeller like in the water, but is fine on the trailer.

second is the computer apparently is showing old evidence that the ski was sunk at some time. Not recently, but a while ago.

So.......
I will keep you guys posted, but at this point, I am going to be contacting the dealer who sold me the ski and seeing what they are going to do about this. They are either going to take it back and return my money, or fix it. Somehow I don't expect them to fix it.
This has turned into a nightmare.....

Thanks for all your help so far though.

 

[seadoolover]

second opinion

Yep! Always get a second opinion and NOT the dealer that sold you the ski!! Good luck with getting your money back. Didn't it come with a waranty being from a dealer?

 

[StarfireMarDiv]

Yeah, I let the dealer have one good crack at the issue, then took it somewhere else. I briefly talked to the dealer on Saturday afternoon setting up a Tuesday morning appointment, and the dealer is REALLY defensive and antagonistic towards this. He started to attack the other tech, until he was told who it was, then he went off about how we rolled the ski, and it had to be our fault, then how his tech said nothing was wrong, so he was not willing to do anything, ect....
To be honest, I think the dealer got conned when they took this ski as a trade in, and honestly did not know there was something wrong with the ski. I mean it runs just fine out of water. However now that I have a good baseline as to what is wrong, they are trying to back away from any responsibility for this.
I will let you all know what the results on Tuesday are.
On the warranty issue, no. They say it ran when I picked it up, therefor anything wrong is my fault.