I have a 2000 SeaDoo Challenger 1800 with the Mercury V6 jet drive. I was out on the lake yesterday and everything was fine for a few hours. I went back to the dock, picked up a friend and went back out. Everything was great for about 10 minutes, then all of the sudden there was a loss/surge combo of trust. I slowed the engine to idle and it died. I let it sit for a minute thinking something clogged the intake. It started just fine and took off fine, then there was a loss of thrust again, slowed to idle, then all of the sudden, there is a loud clanking sound. souds like it is coming from the engine and not by the impeller. Any suggestions? Fouled plug maybe? Also, I have been using XPS synthetic oil. the dealer said it was fine but after looking online, I have found that I am supposed to be using TC-W3. Could this also cause problems? Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks... Chad
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2000 Challenger w/M2 jet drive PROBLEM!!!
- Thread starter cjohnson
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Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
The XPS oil will protect the engine WAY better than a TC-w3 oil. BUT... if you mixed XPS with the TC-w3 oil... then there could be a prob. Not all 2-stroke oils will mix. So... is this the first time you used XPS? Is there oil in the header tank mounted to the engine?
Clanking isn't good. I would recommend taking the spark plugs out, and examine them for damage. Then turn the flywheel by hand. (make sure it's smooth) Also examine the engine block for a rod hanging out.
Clanking isn't good. I would recommend taking the spark plugs out, and examine them for damage. Then turn the flywheel by hand. (make sure it's smooth) Also examine the engine block for a rod hanging out.
Can I ask Why the XPS oil is better? It states in the engine bay and the service manual "Do not use Rotax injection oil". I picked up a couple gallons of the TC-W3 oil. I put a little bit of both the TC-W3 oil and the XPS oil on my fingers and the TC-W3 is notciably thicker. I do not know if oil was mixed, would depend on if the dealer changed the oil like they said they did. I did pull the plus and noticed that the right bank of plugs seemed a little more burnt/fouled/had build up. The left bank plugs looked shiny and new. I am guessing that is a problem unless only half of the plugs were replaced... I did not turn the flywheel. I put the plugs back in because I was going to take it back to the dealer and blame them for using the wrong oil, will the flywheel still turn with them in?
So I called the dealer and they said they did not do an oil change. Stupid me...now that I think about it, these boats go through too much oil for it to be changed..duh... If I remember, the oil it had in it was blue, and the XPS oil is red. The new oil that I bought is again blue, so yes, the two were mixed but I have already ran through 2 plus gallons of the XPS oil. I am going to switch back to the TC-W3 oil and also see if that helps clear up the smoking issue that the boat didnt have until it was running on the XPS oil... I am going to change the plugs tonight and see if that fixes the sound. Any other ideas or comments?
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
Yes... the flywheel will turn, but you will be fighting the compression. With the plugs out... it should turn by hand with little resistance. SO... if there is a mechanical issue... you will probably feel it.
The reason the book says not to use it... is because Mercury specs the oil in that engine... and not seadoo. There are a bunch of differences with oils... but basically the API-TC (JASO-FC) is the next level of protection. There are metal salt additives (stearates) that protect the engine better at high heat, high pressure, and high RPM's. BUT... they aren't very friendly to the fish and plants in the water. The TC-w oils are more environmentally friendly.
The only known issue with the metal additives is that they can foul the plugs after extended periods of consent RPMs. If you are on and off the throttle (like most recreational boats) then it's not an issue. If they put in the synthetic oil... that's not any issue anyway.
Unfortunately... you can blame the dealer all you want... but I doubt they will take responsibly on a 12 year old engine.
The other issue that is known with these 2.5L Merc engines, is that the oil pump gear will melt... and the pump just stops spinning. AND... unfortunately... you are in the time frame of having a bad gear.
The one thing that has me concerned is that you said 3 of the plugs looked new and shiny. Even if the engine was only run for 3 or 4 minutes... they will be dark.
The reason the book says not to use it... is because Mercury specs the oil in that engine... and not seadoo. There are a bunch of differences with oils... but basically the API-TC (JASO-FC) is the next level of protection. There are metal salt additives (stearates) that protect the engine better at high heat, high pressure, and high RPM's. BUT... they aren't very friendly to the fish and plants in the water. The TC-w oils are more environmentally friendly.
The only known issue with the metal additives is that they can foul the plugs after extended periods of consent RPMs. If you are on and off the throttle (like most recreational boats) then it's not an issue. If they put in the synthetic oil... that's not any issue anyway.
Unfortunately... you can blame the dealer all you want... but I doubt they will take responsibly on a 12 year old engine.
The other issue that is known with these 2.5L Merc engines, is that the oil pump gear will melt... and the pump just stops spinning. AND... unfortunately... you are in the time frame of having a bad gear.
The one thing that has me concerned is that you said 3 of the plugs looked new and shiny. Even if the engine was only run for 3 or 4 minutes... they will be dark.
The three plugs that looked new did have a little oil on them. I am not used to looking at plugs so as far as I know they could look exactly how they need to. The other three had deposits on them so I am going to change them tonight. The dealer also said I should change the plugs. I have read about the temp sensor going bad. Should I replace this as well? Also, with the oil pump grear, I am going to look through the service manual, but is that something that is easily seen when you locate it or do you have to take the pump apart? The only oil that I have seen has been a little dripage around the carbs. Is this an issue? As far as the engine as a whole, it looks like it just came off the factory line. The previous owner hardly used it. I am thinking that time and age is going to be my problem, not wear and tear.
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
Exactly. A VERY low hour machine is almost worse the "Normal" use. I've bought a few things like that over the years... and I was always chasing leaks. (Seals dry out from lack of use)
Change the plugs... it can't hurt. BUT... you said there was a "Clanking" sound when it stopped last time. That's not a good sound. Did you figure out what that was?
Finally... no... it's not easy to look at the oil gear. It's mounted to the crankshaft. Basically, you need to remove the oil pump, and than look into the hole. (You may need a bore scope)
We have been talking theoretical up until now. So... what engine do you have?
From reading, some people have had a clank sound with fouled plugs so I hope that is the case.
Before is started the sound after I started it up again, it did let out the usual 2-stroke smoke so I am guessing the oil pump is still working
Tonight while I am replacing the plugs, I am going to turn the flywheel to see if I hear anything. The nice guy that towed me in recommended that I start adding seafoam to my fuel.
The boat is a 2000 Challenger 1800 and I have the Mercury M2 Jet Drive V6 210hp
Before is started the sound after I started it up again, it did let out the usual 2-stroke smoke so I am guessing the oil pump is still working
Tonight while I am replacing the plugs, I am going to turn the flywheel to see if I hear anything. The nice guy that towed me in recommended that I start adding seafoam to my fuel.
The boat is a 2000 Challenger 1800 and I have the Mercury M2 Jet Drive V6 210hp
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
AUUGHGHHH !!!!! NO !!!!!
Seafoam is a solvent. It was designed to clean the fuel system. Since it's a solvent... it will kill the oil film that is protecting your engine !! The only thing that is safe in your 2-stroke is Marine Stay-bill. (or other stabilizer)
You may want to put your engine in your signature line. I think that boat could have also been the 240 EFI. (Still an M2 system) Speaking of that... I'm going to change mine too.
I will do that...the engine is the 210 with serial number 0E374317. I will have plugs tomorrow. NGK BUZ8H/7447. These are the listed plugs in the manual. It had Autolites in it... I am going to take the other plugs out tonight and turn the flywheel and see how that goes... I hope that bad plugs are the issue!
Okay, so the plugs are pulled. I spun the flywheel and to me everything feels to move freely and with ease. Here is a picture of the plugs. They are in order from top to bottom cylinder and left and right bank. It looks to me that the plugs on the right do not look like they should. What do you think? hopefully the pic will show up
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I am going to replace the plugs and check compression tonight. Also going to check spark and try to test the stator. Everything about this engine looks new, so since I am dealing with age, what are some key things that I should most likely replace as preventative maintanence?
El Toro 33809
Well-Known Member
That's bad news! Let's see what Dr Honda has to say. He is a wealth of knowledge and is becoming intimate with the Merc's.
Yes, he is rebulding one... I think it may be a reed valve, or seal or something. But yes, Please Dr. Honda, HELP!!! any suggestions would be great. Cylinder 6 is the only one with 0 compression all are at 80 compression and 4 is at 79....cylinder 6 is the only issue which would explain the noise I have explained in earlier post... Please advise on where to start taking things apart.
no compression in a cylinder plus a loud clanking noise would lead me to think that the rod in that cylinder broke somewhere. Investigate the physical condition of the motor, hopefully theres not a hole from that rod in your block. Unfortunetly your motor is gonna need to be torn apart to know the problem for sure and then most likely a full rebuild. But now there are relatively cheaper priced rebuild kits that can get ya goin again.
start by pulling the heads off and looking into the cylinder and see what the cylinder wall looks like. then you can turn the motor by a ratchet on the flywheel nut. if the #6 piston doesnt move then that rod is no longer connecting things.
and are you sure you did your comp test correctly? 80psi is atleast 40psi below normal comp numbers for that motor. Were you still running the original oil injection?
Yes, still running the original oil injection... The way we did it was just on the battery charge no battery booster or anything with the throttle held open. Is there a different way or a sepcific way to do one on a mercury engine? All of the cylinders ended up stopping right around the readings.
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about the loss.
Reeds don't cause loss of compression. Also... 80 is low on the other jugs. The target pressure is about 125 psi. As said above... take the heads off and see what it looks like.
Right now... I'm making the fixureing to machine these blocks, and to exchange cyl liners.
Reeds don't cause loss of compression. Also... 80 is low on the other jugs. The target pressure is about 125 psi. As said above... take the heads off and see what it looks like.
Right now... I'm making the fixureing to machine these blocks, and to exchange cyl liners.
well.... cylinder 6 is shot and so is the head from the cylinder...I don't even think the cuts in the cylinder wall can be bored out within tollerance..... Have only had the boat for 4 months... When I bought it from a dealer, I was told everything checked out fine. When I called for advise and to see what they did to it before they sold it, the last R.O. was from 2011 when they winterized it....
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