1996 Sea Doo Bombardier (787/800) No Spark and other questions...

[jetmanjo]

I bought this Ski for a grand and was given a reciept of shop work done a year ago and had sat since then. I get two beeps when plugging in the DESS key and the 4 LED's light up and go off however the fuel light stays on. Also the screen in the middle of the lights shows solid blocks then nothing. I have added fuel, probably enough for half a tank but the fuel light still stays lit. I have heard mention of a fuel baffle, but need more information on what to do for this part.

Upon trying to start it, I hear the Solenoid click each time I depress the start switch, but the engine does not turn. After about 30-50 consecutive pushes of the start switch, I can get it to crank over but there is no spark. I do have good battery and volts. I have pulled the starter off and had it re-built. Before I re-install it, is there anything I should check while it is out? After I took the starter to the shop, I read about jumping, or shorting the solenoid to test whether it is the solenoid or the starter. Too late now, but if I do not get it to crank, I will try that.

When I bought this Ski, I was told it was a 1996 650 XP. From what I have read, there is not a 650 for this year/model. How can I tell exactly what engine I have? Is the 800 model what is really a 787? Is the 700 really a 717?

My 5 amp fuse was blown in the rear box. I replaced it hoping it would get the VTS to work, but when I did this, I let some smoke out just aft of the VTS Motor housing. A black brick looking thing. Any Ideas what the issue is there? Something siezed up? The VTS does not work, but I do hear a relay click after replacing the fuse and pushing the vts one direction, but no relay click heard in the oposite direction.

Once I replace the starter and it cranks if I dont get sparks to the plugs, what is the next place to look? I have heard talk of CDI, and Stator but am pretty new to all of this. My reciept shows that a used CDI was installed a year ago. Do things like that just go out from sitting?

Also, I have a question re: the rear black box that contains the fuses and Solenoid. There are two pieces of metal on top of the box. What is the purpose of them? Is this where the plug wires go when not attached to the plugs? Also, for some reason both of my plug wires have been cut and spliced. The connections look good. I even trimmed 1/2 an inch off of each wire at the spark plug ends. Should I do the same on the black box ends as well?

Main questions: :banghead:

1. What is my next step if after installing the starter and it cranks good but there is no spark?
2. If I install the starter but still have cranking issue. I will jump/short the solenoid to see if that could be the problem. If so, and it cranks, but I do not get a spark, what then?
3. Any Ideas on the VTS blowing the 5 amp fuse letting smoke out aft of the vts moter?
4. What tests can I do by putting the MPEM into diagnostic or advanced diagnostic Mode? I have read that you push the start/stop button 5 times, insert the DESS key, then push the start/stop button one more time. What will this tell me?
5. Is there any way to tell how many hours this motor has on it without taking it to a dealer?

Thanks for any and all help you can provide. I am open to suggestions as my wife really wants me to get this thing running for her! I did my best attempt at browsing through the threads to find my same problems, but a little tough when I dont even know exactly what motor I have. Hoping it is the 787/800 rather than the 717 but maybe it is a 650? A ground being loose sounds to easy and didnt notice anything loose when I pulled the starter. I am an Aircraft Mechanic in the Air Force, so these water rides have me a bit flustered.

I appreciate your comments...

 

[jerrygena]

Hi, there is a tag on the motor, on the rear top output end. my96 gsx has the 787, which from what i've read here are called 800's

 

[jetmanjo]

Thanks, I will look for it when I get home Friday night. Is it in some type of "Code" or would it just say 717 or 787 on it? Thanks!

 

[soccerdan90]

It will say what it is.

 

[wabbit1211]

For starters look at your motor, right in front of the engine block there isa a housing for the flywheel and stator, on top of that housing will be a plate that has the engine type. I believe it should say 787. I'm not good at explaining how to test everything so I'll let some of these more experienced guys Help you with that. You can get some pretty good help on here.

 

[purple_people_eater]

Answers below in Red

I bought this Ski for a grand and was given a reciept of shop work done a year ago and had sat since then. I get two beeps when plugging in the DESS key and the 4 LED's light up and go off however the fuel light stays on. Also the screen in the middle of the lights shows solid blocks then nothing. I have added fuel, probably enough for half a tank but the fuel light still stays lit. I have heard mention of a fuel baffle, but need more information on what to do for this part.

that means the is a good conection between the dess key and the mpem. this is a very good thing. it means your mpem is good. the fact that the fuel gauge is not working is not that big of a deal, it usually the float for the baffle has gone bad or the magnets that tell the level of the fuel has broken off, which is really common on x4's (your model xp is an x4 hull, check my sig for a dedicated x4 thread). all of which are very easy fixes, just pull the baffel and you'll see what i'm talking about.


Upon trying to start it, I hear the Solenoid click each time I depress the start switch, but the engine does not turn. After about 30-50 consecutive pushes of the start switch, I can get it to crank over but there is no spark. I do have good battery and volts. I have pulled the starter off and had it re-built. Before I re-install it, is there anything I should check while it is out? After I took the starter to the shop, I read about jumping, or shorting the solenoid to test whether it is the solenoid or the starter. Too late now, but if I do not get it to crank, I will try that.

this sounds like bad cables,*IF* your sure that battery is good. it has to supply 12.4 volts. period. if not it will act just like this. i can't tell you how many customers come to me claiming all sorts of problems, and its just a battery.

When I bought this Ski, I was told it was a 1996 650 XP. From what I have read, there is not a 650 for this year/model. How can I tell exactly what engine I have? Is the 800 model what is really a 787? Is the 700 really a 717?

its a 787. if the head and jugs of the motor is at a 45 degree angle to the crankcase and if there are red and black caps on the "top" of the motor, its a "rave valve" motor. the only rave valve motors where the 787 and the 951(which was not made untill 97.5).

My 5 amp fuse was blown in the rear box. I replaced it hoping it would get the VTS to work, but when I did this, I let some smoke out just aft of the VTS Motor housing. A black brick looking thing. Any Ideas what the issue is there? Something siezed up? The VTS does not work, but I do hear a relay click after replacing the fuse and pushing the vts one direction, but no relay click heard in the oposite direction.

if the box smokes it most likely the motor that is locked up, if your good with elertical stuff you can take it apart and and clean the brushes and soak the gears in oil, greese her up then put her back together with silocone.

Once I replace the starter and it cranks if I dont get sparks to the plugs, what is the next place to look? I have heard talk of CDI, and Stator but am pretty new to all of this. My reciept shows that a used CDI was installed a year ago. Do things like that just go out from sitting?



Also, I have a question re: the rear black box that contains the fuses and Solenoid. There are two pieces of metal on top of the box. What is the purpose of them? Is this where the plug wires go when not attached to the plugs? Also, for some reason both of my plug wires have been cut and spliced. The connections look good. I even trimmed 1/2 an inch off of each wire at the spark plug ends. Should I do the same on the black box ends as well?

no and the black tabs are for the plug wire when they are not on the plugs.

Main questions: :banghead:

1. What is my next step if after installing the starter and it cranks good but there is no spark?

if you still have no spark take a test light and test the white wire on the coil in the rear e-box, and crank the ski. if you you do not get light your pick up coil inside the mag is busted. the mag is the box like thing in front of the motor. taking it apart and if black plastic comes out then it busted.

2. If I install the starter but still have cranking issue. I will jump/short the solenoid to see if that could be the problem. If so, and it cranks, but I do not get a spark, what then?

see above

3. Any Ideas on the VTS blowing the 5 amp fuse letting smoke out aft of the vts moter?

see above


4. What tests can I do by putting the MPEM into diagnostic or advanced diagnostic Mode? I have read that you push the start/stop button 5 times, insert the DESS key, then push the start/stop button one more time. What will this tell me?

just push five times with lanyard off


5. Is there any way to tell how many hours this motor has on it without taking it to a dealer?

no


Thanks for any and all help you can provide. I am open to suggestions as my wife really wants me to get this thing running for her! I did my best attempt at browsing through the threads to find my same problems, but a little tough when I dont even know exactly what motor I have. Hoping it is the 787/800 rather than the 717 but maybe it is a 650? A ground being loose sounds to easy and didnt notice anything loose when I pulled the starter. I am an Aircraft Mechanic in the Air Force, so these water rides have me a bit flustered.

I appreciate your comments...

when you ride it you'll not get off of it. the x4 are great and really fun rides. they never fail to get your heart pounding.

 

[jetmanjo]

Wow! P.P.E. you are a wealth of knowledge!!! I will be trying your suggestions This weekend once I make it home. I cant wait! I have heard many people say that this is one of the best for its design. A little unstable for new riders but a kick in the pants otherwise.

Would the dealer be able to tell me how many hours are on the engine by hooking up their diagnostic tool? I guess I am just curious. I thought I read or saw a picture of a display showing how many hours were on one through the computer. Might have been a different model.

Yes, I do have the Black and Red RAVE valves on mine. I am guessing the 717's do not have the RAVE's? Or as you say, were not put in my year/model.

After I do the coil test, and if I need to check the Mag, you mentioned the box looking thing at the front of the engine. Is this very difficult to get into? I thought I read that you have to take the exhaust and water box off, along with the front engine mount, and slide the engine back in order to get the cover off.? I really have done a lot of reading to try and self diagnose, but it has been a little difficult because I am new to this ski. (My previous Ski's were all Kawasaki's 440, 550, 750, and 650 X2. They were all fun, but dont recall any of them having the computers and sophistication these newer models have. I sold them because they were banned at the lake I used to like to ride at. I have future plans to take this on the river which is about 3 miles from where I live.)

I will check out the X4 thread you mentioned. Thank you for all your pointers and tips. Wish I had it here so I could run some tests on it now. I will keep you posted.

Oh, two last things,

A. Will the advanced self/test Diagnostic mode help me in any way at this point, or is it for other trouble shooting?

B. Is there a stock way to run the ski out of the water, or would it have an aftermarket addition of house adapter to coole the motor? Just not sure where to look to see if mine has something to allow this.

 

[purple_people_eater]

717's and the motors before it( the 587 and the 6-whatever) or "stand-up" or "upright" motors do not have rave valves. in the x4 thread there is a post that tells what they do.

only a BUDS programer hooked to the mpem can only tell you how many hours the mpem has been "active" or "on" the motor could have been rebuilt, or the mpem could have been replaced. but it give you a general idea of the hours on it.

as far as the mag, yeah it's easiest to move everything in the way. how ever you can lossen the bolts and and shake the ski and see if anything plastic falls out before ripping everything out.

the diagnosic mode will not do much for you at this point. i think its pretty useless anyway but thats just my 2 cents.

another thing when working the vts un-hook and take the motor out( its just and eletric window motor like on a car, in fact you can make a passanger side window motor from a nissan 300x from the early 90's or late 80's, i can't remember the exact year atm, work with some modifaction) and take a 12v battery (like you car) and get some wire extentions and put one wire to the pos term and the other to the neg term and see if she turns, if it just sparks and doesn't turn, she's locked down.

also you need a shop mannual brother, we can help you figure out what your problem is, but nothing beats having the manual to tell you how to do the work to fix it.

as far as running on a hose, that little white "t" looking thing above the muffler is the factory flush port. its easy to make a flush adaptor just get a metal piece that screws on the hose and get a piece to come from metal to the right size rubber hose to fit on the piece under the red cap. if you don't understand i'll take a pic of mine tomorrow and post it.

as far as x2's i was riding a local lake yesterday and met a guy riding an x2. i made his jaw drop with the stuff i was able to do on a sit-down. i was pretty much running with him, and you should have seen his face when i pulled a tail stand in front of him. and i'm sorry about my spelling in this post, its too late for me to care about it.

 

[jetmanjo]

Thanks again for the info. I do have a shop manual. It reminds me a lot of our Aircraft Technical Orders. To be honest, I have not read enough of it. I am guilty, but at least I have it to research some of the tips you are giving me! A lot of the the troubleshooting procedures are not as good in the book as others who have had the hands on experience.

I did notice that little T that has a cap on it. Hard to believe that would be enough water, but then again, it is a relatively small engine compared to my Jemcrafts Big Block 460!

Your right, the diagnostic only tells you 4-5 things, and nothing really in depth to any means.

Spelling? Either its all good, or I am to tired to catch any of it! ha ha

Good tips on the VTS Moter. I will definitely do that to check it out. The odd thing, is that when I throw the fuse in there, the smoke comes from not the motor, but the block behind it. Forget what it is called, but aft of where the VTS main wires come in. Not sure what is back there to let some smoke out... Guess I will be finding out!

Yes, if you can shoot me a picture of your hose setup, that would be perfect! I am very Visual. I think I understand, but to see a complete one in picture form will leave no doubts! Much appreciated!

 

[purple_people_eater]

yeah these things take a lot less water to keep them cool than a 460 does.


as far as the vts, if the motor is locked up, and you try to activate the vts, it burns the relays in the vts box(thus your smoke). that is what i think is going on.

another thing i thought of last night: if you jump the soleniod to try to start the motor, one of two things is going to happen: one if you do get it fire, it will only run for about 33 seconds, or not at all. the reason being is that the mpem "sinces" the coil thought the solenoid. if the solenoid is bad or you did not use it to start the motor, there will be no responce from the coil, after the 33 second mpem system test it will cut power to the coil, thus cutting spark to the motor.

and i'll get that flush thing picture up after work.

 

[jetmanjo]

Okay, I follow what you put down. Makes sense. I will be extremely happy to here it fire, even if for only a few seconds! Would be music to my ears!

I have read through 12 of the 14 pages of your X4 thread. Very good info! I am making a list of a few questions I have, but will wait and post them there after I reach the end.

One question I do have here, is it safe to use a rechargeable jump start box? I have read not good to jump from a running/charging vehicle, but if the juice is low in my ski battery, would this be a viable method? Or should I use the new battery I purchased for my motorcycle instead? (I havent got it installed in the bike yet, other prioitys such as getting on the water keep getting in my way!)

Once I get that far, where would I find a decent write up on replacing the fuel baffle or checking out to see if I can get my fuel guage working? As Mine is a multi guage, I am glad it is not (Probably) broke! Just need some fire in the hole!

 

[jetmanjo]

Okay, Saturday I am going to install the re-brushed Starter. I am going to clean all the cables, grounds, and wires while I am at it. Is it best to use plain Vaseline on those type connections, or Dielcectric grease? I bought a tube of the D.E. Grease as I know it has many uses in the electrical components but just want to use what is going to work best. Thanks for your input.

 

[purple_people_eater]

i'd use the D.E